PCM 409 vs. PCM H5

[Tommywalton1974 175]

They are too close to compare or worry about IMO. Like a 7mm rem mag and .300 win mag. I will say the LS engines are brutes. All of them. The head and can are what make the gen3 and 4 Chevys rock. I will say the al 5.3 and in the 08 z71 is identical to iron block versions except the cam is different but the main thing is compression is bumped up to get that extra 20hp.

 

I love the LS engine family and I suspect the gen1 vortec will be phased out once all the blocks are used up.

[h20king 794]

Exactly power is to close to be considered an upgrade in my opinion or fight about just wanted the info out there so other people don't spend the extra 5k for no power gain.

[Bongo Fury 640]

Exactly power is to close to be considered an upgrade in my opinion or fight about just wanted the info out there so other people don't spend the extra 5k for no power gain.

 

H...we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.....The upgrade was well worth it to me.... I would not hesitate to do it again and I notice it every time I'm on my boat. Very interesting reading and thanks for sharing.

[h20king 794]

H...we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.....The upgrade was well worth it to me.... I would not hesitate to do it again and I notice it every time I'm on my boat. Very interesting reading and thanks for sharing.

you missed a post you get 60 more foot pound's of torque with the 409 vs the 343. That's useable power so you get something for your money. Now the h5 is a different story. You get less torque and only 10 or 12 horsepower more then the 343 so you are out the extra money with no power gain and higher maintenance costs. The h5 is a nice motor but in my eyes not worth the cost.

[h20king 794]

Here are the numbers I have:

 

EX3 5.7 -343HP/370TQ

H5DI 5.3 -355HP/405TQ

H6DI 6.2 -450HP/465TQ

 

The EX3 is fine for surfing unless you really like to load it and also want top end speed/economy. H5 pulling up a wakeboarder with 3300lbs ballast and 12 peeps and still being able to hit 42 when not loaded is beyond base performance in my mind. Plus the fuel economy is great, not for cost necessarily, but for convenience when leaving it on the lake.

 

We don't get the H5 or H6 unless it's special order, as it's not necessary like you said. At least Supreme is offering the 409 as an upgrade for '17. The price is not much of a bump over stock, so I think it's a great offering. I didn't think they were doing away with the H5, but I am not certain on that.

 

think your numbers are off LOL don't feel bad most dealers don't know as much as a lot of the members here ROTFLMAO

http://www.pcmengines.com/engines/hyperformance-five/

http://www.pleasurecraft.com/ex_ces.html

[CO Surfer 289]

H20, read the link you posted again. They're multiplying the engine torque by the drive ratio to get the higher torque number. I've seen that before.

 

It's those marketing guys. I always used to hate that as an engineer when the marketing guys took something I said out of context and ran with it.

 

The link on the H5 is straight engine torque. The one on the 343 is multiplying the engine torque by the drive ratio to get prop torque which in my opinion is very misleading.

 

Edit: I went back and looked at my paperwork. The H5 upgrade on my boat (2016) was $2,300 additional over the 343.

Edited September 8, 2016 by CO Surfer

[h20king 794]

Working a shut down will look more when I get home and see what else I can find. Would like to thank you guys its been raining here for a week and you helped me get through a long day.

[Race City Marine 60]

think your numbers are off LOL don't feel bad most dealers don't know as much as a lot of the members here ROTFLMAO

http://www.pcmengines.com/engines/hyperformance-five/

http://www.pleasurecraft.com/ex_ces.html

 

Manners dude, we don't need a forum troll. If you really believe the 343 has more torque than the H5 and almost as much as the H6 AND upgraded engines from Indmar and Ilmor then dang dude, you just got the deal of a century!!! LOL. But seriously, this isn't a Honda Civic forum, so chill.

[Tommywalton1974 175]

It's easier to work on gen 3 small blocks and they respond to power upgrades well. Takes more $$$ to make gen1's grunt. Most would never touch a marine engine.. Most.

 

Thanks to whoever posted the info on the pcm's. If I ever get a chance to spec a boat it'd be the one with the LS3. Whatever pcm calls it.

[acman 59]

Direct Injection vs Sequential Fuel Injection More Torque and Less Fuel - PCM Direct Injection EnginesDirect Injection vs. Sequential Fuel Injection

Ever since PCM came out with the new direct injection H5 and H6 engines, we have been asked what the difference is between direct and sequential injection and if PCM is the only company using direct injection. I hope to answer both questions below. Here is some basic information about injection systems.

Basically, a SFI (sequential fuel injection) system has a fuel injector for each cylinder. Each of these injectors puts fuel into the system at 30-40 PSI before the intake valve. This air/fuel mixture is pulled into the cylinder past the intake valve on the intake stroke of the piston and is then compressed and ignited. This system was way more fuel efficient and created way more power than the carburation systems it replaced. Sequential fuel injection has been used in marine engines for several years and is the system that is currently used in most new towboats and the system PCM used on engines until 2016.

DI (Direct Injection) is the next evolution of fuel injection where the fuel is injected after the intake valve directly into each cylinder at over 3000 psi. What are the advantages DI of over the old SFI system? Antuan Goodwin (engine writer for Cnet) said that readers may have noticed that during the jumps from carburetion to SPFI (single port) to MPFI (multi-port), the point at which fuel is added to the intake charge, has moved from before the throttle to the intake manifold and onward to the individual intake runners — closer and closer to the combustion chamber. Direct injection takes this evolution to the next level by placing the injector inside the combustion chamber. By moving the injector into the combustion chamber, GDI (gasoline direct injection) gains a few advantages over the previously discussed systems.

By putting the injector inside the cylinder, the engine’s computer gains even more precision control over the amount of fuel injected during the intake stroke, further optimizing the air/fuel mixture to create a clean burning explosion with very little wasted fuel and increased power delivery.

A GDI system also has more flexibility regarding when in the combustion cycle the fuel is added. MPFI systems can only add fuel during the intake stroke of the piston, when the intake valve is open. GDI can add fuel whenever it needs to. For example, some GDI engines can adjust the timing so that a lesser amount of fuel is injected during the compression stroke, creating a much smaller, controlled explosion in the cylinder. This so-called ultra-lean burn mode sacrifices a bit of outright power but greatly reduces the amount of fuel used during times when the (boat) requires very little grunt (idling, decelerating, etc.).

Well, enough of all that tech stuff – So what does direct injection mean for you? It means you can have an engine that has more torque (low end power) than a sequential fuel injection system has, and you get that extra power while burning less fuel. I can tell you from personal experience that the new H5 just plain stomps the last year’s PCM ZR409 out of the hole on a Centurion FS33 with max ballast. But the really big surprise happened when we tested the new PCM H6 engine here at altitude in Utah. We were able to get a fully ballasted Ri237 (10,500 lbs. total weight) up to wakeboard speed at Deer Creek. We were really surprised because that is the max amount of weight that we could get to wakeboard speed with my 2015 supercharged 550 hp PCM XR7. We tested them side by side, and the difference was negligible.

Needless to say that after our personal experience, we weren’t terribly surprised when we received the engine comparison specs from PCM. The New PCM Direct Injection H5 and H6 are 33% faster 0 to 23 mph than last year’s PCM ZR409 & ZR450. The best part though was that these new engines are up to 27% more fuel efficient than last year’s comparable engines. More power, less fuel. That’s a combination I can live with. It is no wonder a good friend of mine, Trey Thurman from PCM, told me a year ago that PCM had something special coming for 2016 and that I would love it. Trey was right, these motors are very, very impressive.

Side note, just in case you were wondering, PCM is the only towboat engine manufacture using direct injection engines for 2016. That means if the towboat you are looking at is not a Centurion, Nautique, or Supreme, it most likely does not have Direct Injection.

“Life is Short, Let’s Ride”

Edited September 8, 2016 by acman

[stoked 1,039]

H20, read the link you posted again. They're multiplying the engine torque by the drive ratio to get the higher torque number. I've seen that before.

 

It's those marketing guys. I always used to hate that as an engineer when the marketing guys took something I said out of context and ran with it.

 

The link on the H5 is straight engine torque. The one on the 343 is multiplying the engine torque by the drive ratio to get prop torque which in my opinion is very misleading.

 

Edit: I went back and looked at my paperwork. The H5 upgrade on my boat (2016) was $2,300 additional over the 343.

 

I'm stealing this from Dark:

 

[CO Surfer 289]

That's a mean cat!

I definitely wasn't trying to beat up on H2O. He has been very helpful to me and others in the past.

I had come across the different torque "specs" previously when I was first ordering my boat and it took me a minute to realize what was going on. Once I realized they were multiplying engine torque by transmission ratio, the numbers made sense. I eventually came across something that labeled it as "prop torque". It is very misleading when the marketing people do stuff like that.

[JP2 5]

Interesting read, i have two friends that have bought new Nautique 200 ski boats in the last year. One has the 343 and the other the H5. The H5 stomps the 343, Night and Day difference in the pull. On Ball of Spray many die hard skiers are complaining that the new 200 with a H5 to strong a pull, that you need to re learn how to ski as the pull is so firm.

 

Also, same friend that bought the 200 / H5 this year also bought a new G23 and it also has an H5 and seems to work great pushing a huge G23 surfing, I think a 343 would barely move that boat.

 

Reminds me when I sold my 4.4 300hp BMW X5 for a smaller lighter MDX with a 3.0 / 300 hp engine and my thought was they don't measure the same way! The BMW was way faster and stronger....Just numbers.....

[stoked 1,039]

That's a mean cat!

I definitely wasn't trying to beat up on H2O. He has been very helpful to me and others in the past.

I had come across the different torque "specs" previously when I was first ordering my boat and it took me a minute to realize what was going on. Once I realized they were multiplying engine torque by transmission ratio, the numbers made sense. I eventually came across something that labeled it as "prop torque". It is very misleading when the marketing people do stuff like that.

 

It's only the second time it's been used, he's rarely wrong. I'm not saying he's wrong here, but it's about as close as we're going to get

 

It is interesting, I was looking up the 409 and it's the same thing. A lot of googling this morning and I couldn't find the straight engine torque reading anywhere.

[Tommywalton1974 175]

Up to 27% more fuel Efficient. Most of the time though about 5%. There is always. Always a trade off. Direct injection is in its infancy with marine engines. Big problems have been going on last few years in the auto industry. Direct injection has problems. Wait until these beloved pcm engines get some hours and start eating fuel injectors. The enjectors are in the combustion chamber. Not to mention intake valve issues. The list is long.

 

So it's in the combustion chamber. So the fuel charge doesn't mix before the valve. Blah blah. Negligible. The LS3 6.0 with Sequential fuel injection is a way more proven head design. What about injector cup seals? What about the cost to service a direct injected head.

 

No thanks If I had a choice I'd get that sequentially injected 6.0 that pcm still has

[CO Surfer 289]

Give me those old fashioned carburetors and points. They never failed me!

[Tommywalton1974 175]

Give me those old fashioned carburetors and points. They never failed me!

No way. It's carb and electronic ignition! That's the shiz

[RobertsonMotorsports 33]

Having spent a reasonable amount of hours in many boats with the 340/343, 409, H5 and H6 in Centurions and Supreme's I would say the EX3 does the job, but barely. It's working hard to pull a loaded 226 or SV233. It ain't moving an Ri217. The H5 I find is a good upgrade over the EX3 and I really thought it was fairly comparable in performance to the 409's with the old gear ratio plus it was way quieter and amazing on fuel I thought. The H6 is just a powerhouse, the motor pulls. The most impressed I've been in a long time was my first demos in the 17 Supreme's with the 409. Full ballast surfing with Quicksurf at 3000-3100rpm and super quiet, the motors not even trying.

 

I loved the H5 though. Vicky sent me the photoshoot FS44 last summer for a demo and it had the H5. I thought she was crazy! But it worked well and hauled the mail with ballast full w/ Quicksurf and listed and we had 8-10 people in it many times and it worked fine. The base motor in 15 was the ZR450. The H5 with the 1.72 ratio works well and I have been very impressed with it.

[viking 491]

The H5 was not an option for me when i ordered my 15 but I certainly don't regret upping it to the 409.

[rrd525 40]

I would have thrown $750 at our dealer if the 409 was an option on the 2016's.