Aerator Pumps & Electric Valves Controlled Test

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Howdy Folks,

 

My name is Dan and this is my first post here, but I’ve been quietly following the forum for sometime now and have purchased a couple of boards last season from WakeDoc. We sold our Malibu VLX and purchased a 09 Enzo 240 as the wake on the VLX was surfable, it just wasn’t monstrous. Our new boat has one Water Puppy and the three midship ballast tanks.

 

Our boat to be delivered soon and we wanted the ballast system to be push button seamless, but I was concerned that the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valves may reduce the flow rate of the factory system as suggested in many posts on this forum. I also wanted to upgrade the single Jabsco Water Puppy (6 gpm) to something that would produce more flow.

 

Our plan is to install two custom Enzo sacs and add another thru hole for a second pump. I plan to have both pumps feed a single bag at a time. I have been leaning toward an aerator pump for ease of replacement and cost. So I purchased a Mayfair 1000 aerator pump and a 1” Orbit Jar Valve from Shell at Fineline. I also had a Tsunami 1200 aerator pump from my previous boat setup and purchased a ¾” brass 12 vdc valve from ebay which can be seen here http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=300393174645 . I chose 3/4” brass vs 1” to reduce weight and the info I obtained stated it would flow greater that 20 gpm. I would prefer a 1” electric 12vdc ball valve, but the ones I have found are rather expensive. If anyone happens to know of a reasonably priced 1” electric 12vdc ball valve please share, it doesn’t have to be brass.

 

To conduct this test I had the following:

- Swimming poll (unrestricted water source)

- 12 vdc Lawn & Garden Battery with 160 cold cranking amps from Pep Boys

- Mayfair 1000 aerator pump

- Tsunami 1200 aerator pump

- 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve

- ¾” brass 12 vdc valve

- 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose (no kinks)

- 4 orange Home Depot 5-gallon buckets measured at 1-gallon increments

- Stop watch set to count down 1 minute with alarm

 

Each setup was tested three separate times to validate the accuracy of the test and test was not begun until a maximum stream of water had commenced.

 

Here are the results for the Mayfair 1000 aerator pump:

Unrestricted: 10 GPM or 600 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 3 GPM or 180 GPH

¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH

 

Here are results for the Tsunami 1200 aerator pump:

Unrestricted: 13 GPM or 780 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 3 GPM or 180 GPH

¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH

 

First off I was totally surprised at the less than advertized flow rates from these two aerator pumps when unrestricted and clearly the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve causes a restriction in flow.

 

Now how much of a flow restriction will occur with an impeller style pump such as a Water Puppy or Ballast Puppy I don’t know. Impeller Pumps produce more pressure than aerator pumps and the more pressure the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve receives the more it will flow according to the tech rep I spoke with at Orbit. In fact the Orbit rep stated it takes 15 psi to flow 5 gpm and maxes out at 150 psi to obtain 40 gpm. Also keep in mind the 1” sprinkler valve has a 24 vac solenoid and in our boats it is operating on a 12 vdc source. Not sure if that has much relevance, but some folks I spoke with said the valve would not operate at all (everyone that has the factory manifold setup knows that this is not true).

 

One would ask how can a ¾ “ valve have a greater flow than a 1” sprinkler valve? The answer lies in how the valves operate. The ¾ “ valves electric solenoid actually pulls the diaphragm up and out of the way to allow water flow where the 1” sprinkler valve merely equalizes pressure within the body and the incoming water pressure on the inlet side of the valve actually moves the diaphragm out of the way to allow water to flow.

 

So now I must rethink my plan, but in the meantime I may purchase the 1” electric 12 vdc brass valve to test flow rate. I really would like to maintain an electric manifold system less the Orbit sprinkler valves.

 

Cheers

[CenturionSkier 43]

IT seems like a unfair test to me. You need to get your hands on a Jabsco to do the test for sure. As you say a impeller creates more pressure and that would open the orbit further. I removed the springs in the Orbit and it seemed to flow much quicker in my boat. Make sure you test that way as well.

 

Good luck

[Bigshow 0]

The Jabsco pump is a positive displacement pump. Restriction from the valves will have much less impact on that pump.

 

A velocity pump, a pump like the Mayfair and Tsunami pumps, will be greatly affected by flow restriction. I'm assuming that in the tests you attached the valves with hoses, how long were the hoses. The hoses will add to your flow resistance. My Tsunami pump came with a 1” hose. If you reduced down to ¾” then you’ve greatly increased flow restriction. The aerator (velocity) pumps might achieve rated performance if you remove the hoses. Obviously you need hoses in your boat. I'm just saying that the hoses add restriction which reduces flow especially to the aerator style pumps.

 

Suppose you close the output valve on the Jabsco pump. The pressure will increase until something gives, could be dangerous to be around. If you do the same thing on the Mayfair/Tsunami pumps the pressure will increase a little but nothing is going to blow, though the pump motors might over heat.

 

As for your 24 Vac valve… Operating in to the simple resistive load a 24 Vac source and a 24 Vdc source will deliver the same amount of energy. The results are a little different driving a capacitive or inductive load. So generally, your 12 Vdc source is only providing half of the power that the valve is designed to operate with. It gets a little better when your engine is on. With your engine on the buss voltage is more like 14 Vdc.

 

Note that most often when you see an alternating current is in root mean square (rms). The peak voltage is actually higher, 1.414 times higher. So the peak voltage for 24 Vac is 24 * 1.414 = 39.9 Vpeak.

 

Your pumps should perform better if you run your tests with the engine on because you’ll have 2 more volts to work with and 16 % more power.

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Unfortunately, the boat is at the dealer getting mods so I couldn't include it in todays test, but when I get it back latter this week I plan to pull the Water Puppy (6 gpm) out of the boat and perform the same test. I'm curious to see how the additional pressure of an impeller pump will affect the flow rate of the sprinkler valve. Hopefully I can get that accomplished this next weekend and will post the results

 

Thanks

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Agreed, the hoses will reduce max flow somewhat, but in this case I beleive it wasn't significant. In this test I used 4' of 1” ID vinyl hose between the pump and the valve and the same between the valve and the buckets. On the unresticted test (no valve utilized), I used just a 4' of 1” ID vinyl hose btween the pump and the buckets. No hose was utilized on the inlet side of the pump as the pumps inlet was submerged in the pool.

 

Good point, from my research and limited electrical knowledge the pumps should produce more flow if the are being feed 14 vdc from the engines alternator.

 

Thanks

[Oldwakedude 0]

Excellent test, thank you . I've been wanting to find or do a definitive test and now you done it. I can help with a few questions :

 

Aerator style pumps are normally advertised at the maximum rate which is with zero head (no discharge hose). This is a bit of an impossible situation so you will never achieve maximum advertised rate in a ballast system. To know exactly what the pump would theoretically do under different piping arrangements we would need to see the pump curves, but I don't think the mfg. publishes them for these pumps (that would show their advertised flow rate unrealistic). I am quite surprised that these pumps actually opened the sprinkler valve at all.

 

As show points out the Jabsco style pumps are positive displacement pumps, as you increase the resistance in the discharge line it maintains the same flow, but draws more power (amps). As show notes a closed discharge line will drive the pump to maximum, which will either blow a hose or pop the fuse (hopefully not worse).

 

As far as the sprinkler valves working on 12vdc here is a site that may give you some insight:

 

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_using_ac_coils_5/

 

In designing your system there are a lot of personal factors you have to consider :

 

1) How fast do you want the sacs to fill

2) Do you want to be driving to your surf spot while you fill or do you fill while the boat is tied to the dock.

3) Do you want to use sprinkler valves to fill multiple pumps?

4) If you are using it for surfing you have to arrange the vent and drain lines to prevent free flow draining when surfing.

5) When draining do you want to just turn the pump on and forget about it until you eventually notice that there is no more water flowing over the side?

 

You mentioned you want to use two pumps at one time to fill the Enzo sack on the surf side, since that is similar to my system I submit the ballast design of my 2008 Enzo 230 for your consideration . I think this is version 5, we are working on version 6 where we add a rule 17A to fill the Enzo Sac.

 

Again, thanks for the effort and providing some valuable information .

Ballast_system_Electric.pdf

Ballast_system.pdf

[Oldwakedude 0]

Agreed, the hoses will reduce max flow somewhat, but in this case I beleive it wasn't significant. In this test I used 4' of 1” ID vinyl hose between the pump and the valve and the same between the valve and the buckets. On the unresticted test (no valve utilized), I used just a 4' of 1” ID vinyl hose btween the pump and the buckets. No hose was utilized on the inlet side of the pump as the pumps inlet was submerged in the pool.

 

Good point, from my research and limited electrical knowledge the pumps should produce more flow if the are being feed 14 vdc from the engines alternator.

 

Thanks

 

The head loss is not just in the length of the hose, but also how high above the pump the end was, since you were filling 5 gal buckets I assume that was 2 feet, pretty realistic for a ballast system.

 

Increasing the voltage on the aerator will increase the RPM and make it pump a little faster, which will make it pump slightly faster.

 

Definitely want to see the results of your next test

[duffymahoney 10]

Great thread! Very interesting. I have both pumps and the 1200 is crazy fast for filling and draining extra sacs.

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Oldwakedude,

 

Thanks for link to the ac/dc article and the schematics of your system. Just curious as which pumps you are currently using, if you are using the factory sprinkler valve manifold and what is your fill time for the Enzo sac?

 

Thanks

[Bigcatpt 408]

Howdy Folks,

 

My name is Dan and this is my first post here, but I’ve been quietly following the forum for sometime now and have purchased a couple of boards last season from WakeDoc. We sold our Malibu VLX and purchased a 09 Enzo 240 as the wake on the VLX was surfable, it just wasn’t monstrous. Our new boat has one Water Puppy and the three midship ballast tanks.

 

Our boat to be delivered soon and we wanted the ballast system to be push button seamless, but I was concerned that the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valves may reduce the flow rate of the factory system as suggested in many posts on this forum. I also wanted to upgrade the single Jabsco Water Puppy (6 gpm) to something that would produce more flow.

 

Our plan is to install two custom Enzo sacs and add another thru hole for a second pump. I plan to have both pumps feed a single bag at a time. I have been leaning toward an aerator pump for ease of replacement and cost. So I purchased a Mayfair 1000 aerator pump and a 1” Orbit Jar Valve from Shell at Fineline. I also had a Tsunami 1200 aerator pump from my previous boat setup and purchased a ¾” brass 12 vdc valve from ebay which can be seen here http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=300393174645 . I chose 3/4” brass vs 1” to reduce weight and the info I obtained stated it would flow greater that 20 gpm. I would prefer a 1” electric 12vdc ball valve, but the ones I have found are rather expensive. If anyone happens to know of a reasonably priced 1” electric 12vdc ball valve please share, it doesn’t have to be brass.

 

To conduct this test I had the following:

- Swimming poll (unrestricted water source)

- 12 vdc Lawn & Garden Battery with 160 cold cranking amps from Pep Boys

- Mayfair 1000 aerator pump

- Tsunami 1200 aerator pump

- 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve

- ¾” brass 12 vdc valve

- 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose (no kinks)

- 4 orange Home Depot 5-gallon buckets measured at 1-gallon increments

- Stop watch set to count down 1 minute with alarm

 

Each setup was tested three separate times to validate the accuracy of the test and test was not begun until a maximum stream of water had commenced.

 

Here are the results for the Mayfair 1000 aerator pump:

Unrestricted: 10 GPM or 600 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 3 GPM or 180 GPH

¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH

 

Here are results for the Tsunami 1200 aerator pump:

Unrestricted: 13 GPM or 780 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 3 GPM or 180 GPH

¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH

 

First off I was totally surprised at the less than advertized flow rates from these two aerator pumps when unrestricted and clearly the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve causes a restriction in flow.

 

Now how much of a flow restriction will occur with an impeller style pump such as a Water Puppy or Ballast Puppy I don’t know. Impeller Pumps produce more pressure than aerator pumps and the more pressure the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve receives the more it will flow according to the tech rep I spoke with at Orbit. In fact the Orbit rep stated it takes 15 psi to flow 5 gpm and maxes out at 150 psi to obtain 40 gpm. Also keep in mind the 1” sprinkler valve has a 24 vac solenoid and in our boats it is operating on a 12 vdc source. Not sure if that has much relevance, but some folks I spoke with said the valve would not operate at all (everyone that has the factory manifold setup knows that this is not true).

 

One would ask how can a ¾ “ valve have a greater flow than a 1” sprinkler valve? The answer lies in how the valves operate. The ¾ “ valves electric solenoid actually pulls the diaphragm up and out of the way to allow water flow where the 1” sprinkler valve merely equalizes pressure within the body and the incoming water pressure on the inlet side of the valve actually moves the diaphragm out of the way to allow water to flow.

 

So now I must rethink my plan, but in the meantime I may purchase the 1” electric 12 vdc brass valve to test flow rate. I really would like to maintain an electric manifold system less the Orbit sprinkler valves.

 

Cheers

 

 

Very nice work!!! This begins to answer a lot of long standing questions!!! Very curious how the jabsco pump performs through the valves. If possible get your hands on a Johnson ultra ballast pump to test as well. It is the same size as the jabsco but is advertised as a 13.7 GPM vs the 9 GPM of the Jabsco. Thanks for your work!

[Bigcatpt 408]

I am running two Johnson ultra ballast pumps that are listed as 13.7 GPM. I have not done a formal test like you have done but I can tell you that if I do the math on my installed system that they are running at almost exactly 13 GPM.

 

I don't have any sprinkler style valves in the system. Here is the math

 

Main… LXWXH = 27456 = 118.857 gallons = 992.46 pounds

Arm.. LXWXH = 14880 = 64.416 gallons = 537.87 pounds

Total cubic inches = 42336 = 183.272 gallons = 1530 pounds

 

So its about 183 gallons of water to fill the custom Avy sac. With both pumps on it takes almost exactly 7 minutes to fill.

 

So 183.272/7 = 26.18 GPM for both pumps or 13.09 GPM per pump.

 

That is coming from a single 1 1/4" intake, through a "T" splitter, through 2 feet of 1 inch hose, into the pump, through a 1" manual ball valve, then through another 5-6 feet of 1" hose, and then though the FH quick connects. I would say the johnson pumps perform as advertised!!!!

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Very nice work!!! This begins to answer a lot of long standing questions!!! Very curious how the jabsco pump performs through the valves. If possible get your hands on a Johnson ultra ballast pump to test as well. It is the same size as the jabsco but is advertised as a 13.7 GPM vs the 9 GPM of the Jabsco. Thanks for your work!

 

 

Thanks Bigcatpt,

 

If anyone in the Houston area has a Ballast Puppy or the Johnson ultra ballast pump and are willing to lend it for a test, please send me a pm. Unfortunately, my boat came with just one Water Puppy which is only rated at 6 gpm so my test of an impller pump and sprinkler valve will be somewhat limited.

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

I am running two Johnson ultra ballast pumps that are listed as 13.7 GPM. I have not done a formal test like you have done but I can tell you that if I do the math on my installed system that they are running at almost exactly 13 GPM.

 

I don't have any sprinkler style valves in the system. Here is the math

 

Main… LXWXH = 27456 = 118.857 gallons = 992.46 pounds

Arm.. LXWXH = 14880 = 64.416 gallons = 537.87 pounds

Total cubic inches = 42336 = 183.272 gallons = 1530 pounds

 

So its about 183 gallons of water to fill the custom Avy sac. With both pumps on it takes almost exactly 7 minutes to fill.

 

So 183.272/7 = 26.18 GPM for both pumps or 13.09 GPM per pump.

 

That is coming from a single 1 1/4" intake, through a "T" splitter, through 2 feet of 1 inch hose, into the pump, through a 1" manual ball valve, then through another 5-6 feet of 1" hose, and then though the FH quick connects. I would say the johnson pumps perform as advertised!!!!

 

Excellent feedback!

 

The flow rates with the aerator pump and sprinkler valve was disappointing as I was planning to go with the stock sprinkler manifold and two Tsunami 1200 pumps. I was trying to avoid the impeller pumps due to the high amp draw and it seems overkill to pay for a reversible pump if I am not going to use the reversible feature. Using two Johnson pumps as you have sounds like a great option. Hopefully, the next test with the Water Puppy and sprinkler valve will have better results and provide a better indication of how well the sprinkler valves perform under pressure.

 

Cheers

[Foiler 1]

I had been thinking about starting a new topic but his one popped up and seems to be on the same subject so I would love to get some feedback on using the aerator pumps instead of the Jabsco.

 

Since the Aerators are so cheap, I personally think running one for each bag and just getting rid of the sprinkler valves all together will be the hot ticket so here is my question:

 

I know the Aerators have to be mounted low below the waterline because they are not self priming like the Jabsco but what do I need to do to keep the ballast from filling and draining on its own without using any sprinkler valves. Can the fill lines just be routed higher than the bags? Do I need check valves? Also seen mention of vented loops and I don't really understand those at all. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[h20king 794]

here is my thing you guys are beating yourself up trying to build a ballast system using cartridge pumps why???? boat builders are no longer doing this they are using reversible pumps supra who's boats have came with bags from the beginning have switched to reversible pumps it is the proper way to build a system now that the pumps come with run dry technology meaning if the pump does not see water it will shut off.Also they are more reliable than a cartridge pump.I read these posts and think some guys will step over a dollar to save a dime either that or they have boats they cant really afford.either way if you guys want to continue with the madness I still have a factory water puppy pump and two sprinkler valves with manifold and strainer I would be willing to deal on I pulled them out of my boat which only has 34hrs on it they are barley used

[h20king 794]

here they are mayfairs are already sold and on there way to Texas

Edited March 1, 2010 by h20king

[Foiler 1]

here is my thing you guys are beating yourself up trying to build a ballast system using cartridge pumps why????

 

Well I can certainly understand using reversing impeller pumps if you use them in a system that actually reverses like the system that you designed for your boat and what some of the manufacturers are doing. What I don't understand is why you would want to use them in a system that requires sprinkler valves and doesn't reverse like the Centurion uses. You ask why. Here are my reasons but I am still researching and not dead set on it yet so please anyone feel free to point out any flaws.

 

1. My 07 Typhoon all ready has 3 Mayfair aerator pumps installed to pump "out".

2. They are quite compared to the Impeller pumps

3. They require less amperage to run so I can pump more and have the stereo playing without the engine running.

4. They are cheap

5. They are super easy to change with the cartridge design and since they are so cheap it would be no problem to have a spare and change it out in a few seconds however since you would have several in your system and they are so easy to remove it would be easy to swap out a good one with a bad one and then swap them back until it can be fixed properly. If the single Jabso goes out you better have a spare $200 pump and changing it out would obviously be more of a hassle especially on a hot summer day.

6.Duffy said he has installed both and prefers the aerator system. (I would love to hear more details on his reasons though)

 

So now let me ask you, why? For example if you were filling 2 750 lb locker sacs and the 1 center 250 lb tank would the single Jabso with the sprinkler valves out perform 3 Mayfair pumps without sprinkler valves. I am certain it wouldn't so would 2 Jabsco or Johnson pumps out perform 3 Mayfair in pumps? Not sure if they would or not but I feel like they better since they cost so much, use so much power and make so much noise. But on the other hand I don't really understand why Centurion didn't just use 3 Mayfair pumps for the "in" because that would be cheaper than the sprinkler valves and Jabso and it would be easier to install but I just don't understand why Centurion did the ballast the way that they did. Personally I just don't see that much advantage in impeller pumps but I am open to suggestions.

 

If I had my choice all boats would have the Pure Vert ballast system!!

[duffymahoney 10]

Ok here is why I don't like impellar pumps. Which I don't think anyone should pull out their existing systems unless they are really unhappy with them! Centurion changed there install because they old system had to be filled only while stopped or just barely making a wake. Which sucks! They could have moved the pumps, but I guess impellar pumps were easier.

 

1. In my old boat I had to run the motor to keep the pumps on. I had 2 batteries but they didn't sound right unless the motor was running. So I think about all the gas I burned 2-3 summers ago running the boat to run the pumps. Maybe others don't have that issue, but my lake is very very large and I wouldn't want to lose power.

 

2. In two years I burnt up 2 pumps. Costs me around $400 to fix. These pumps saw heavy heavy use. 5-6 days a week, switching surfing sides 5+ times a day. You are suppose to lube the heads, but I didn't because they were installed in an odd location.

 

3. They are loud

 

4. They are expensive!

 

 

 

Things I liked

 

1. Sacs got all the way empty. Aerator pumps don't really do this

 

2. Easier to install. Less thought and parts are required. Wiring is easier. Again just less complicated.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited March 1, 2010 by duffymahoney

[Foiler 1]

Ok here is why I don't like impellar pumps. Which I don't think anyone should pull out their existing systems unless they are really unhappy with them! Centurion changed there install because they old system had to be filled only while stopped or just barely making a wake. Which sucks! They could have moved the pumps, but I guess impellar pumps were easier.

 

1. In my old boat I had to run the motor to keep the pumps on. I had 2 batteries but they didn't sound right unless the motor was running. So I think about all the gas I burned 2-3 summers ago running the boat to run the pumps. Maybe others don't have that issue, but my lake is very very large and I wouldn't want to lose power.

 

2. In two years I burnt up 2 pumps. Costs me around $400 to fix. These pumps saw heavy heavy use. 5-6 days a week, switching surfing sides 5+ times a day. You are suppose to lube the heads, but I didn't because they were installed in an odd location.

 

3. They are loud

 

4. They are expensive!

 

 

 

Things I liked

 

1. Sacs got all the way empty. Aerator pumps don't really do this

 

2. Easier to install. Less thought and parts are required. Wiring is easier. Again just less complicated.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks Duffy

 

Could you please give me some input on how you set up your boat on the question I posted a few posts back which is:

 

"I know the Aerators have to be mounted low below the waterline because they are not self priming like the Jabsco but what do I need to do to keep the ballast from filling and draining on its own without using any sprinkler valves. Can the fill lines just be routed higher than the bags? Do I need check valves? Also seen mention of vented loops and I don't really understand those at all. Any help will be greatly appreciated. "

 

You are the only one that I know for sure will know the answer.

 

Also are you still pulling in water from the holes in the transom, you have more plumbed into the drain by the tranny, right? Can you fill with the bottom drain hole fitting while under way, I plan on using the factory hole which is also by the drain hole near the transmission and I haven't decided if I want to run the 3rd pump off of the drain hole like you did or run all 3 off of the factory 1 inch hole.

[duffymahoney 10]

I do not fill while underway. Which totally sucks, but that's how centurion designed my stock system. My 2 pumps on the v-drive drain can fill while underway, but they are the extra pumps for the custom sacs so i would only be filling with half my gph. I just wait till I stop and then fill. I can however empty while underway.

 

Aerators should have the fill lines to the sacs on the top. Which works fine. They have to be installed below water level, but that's not to hard. Also they can't have scoop type thru hulls. This would force fill the sacs while underway. Just a standard mushroom type through hull would work. I have 1 way check valves on everything. On the empty pumps I have spring loaded type and on the fill pumps I have swing type. The swing type don't slow down the flow as much as spring. The spring also keep water in while surfing, wakeboarding etc.. on the vent and emtpy lines. Does this make sense?