Live Laugh & Surf

Joey Tomatoes for dinner and the "French Maid" for some Looney Tossing (adult entertainment). You won't be disappointed. Another great place for dinner is the Salt Lick (its a bit pricey). For country dancing and some eye candy, try Cowboys. All are in the downtown area.

I'm holding out for a boat with a Flux Capacitor similar to the one on Back to the Future that runs off household garbage. Till then, I'll keep turning dinosaurs into noise. Cheers

Hi Duramat, According to Johnson's web site the pumps draw 14 amps each. Through other forums it appears the pumps can draw up to 20 amps when first engaged. So 20 amps per pump is my plan for fuse and relay consideration. I too like the the separate home-run idea for each. Here is a link to a web site with recommended wire capacity for a given 12v wire gauge/amperage load: http://www.rowand.net/shop/tech/wirecapacitychart.htm Dan

I agree, relays are the best way forward and I am planning to replicate the relay wiring/configuration as shown in the previous attachment to include as you suggested hooking both "red" wires from the two pumps to one relay, and the "black" wires to the other relay. Where I am uncertain is with the actual wiring of the switch. I found a couple of pictures on WakeBoarder.com (see attachment this post) of the back of a carling technologies DPDT switch. The pictures attached to this post were originally intended is to show how one would wire up a single reversible pump without using relays. As can be seen in the attached pictures of the carling technologies DPDT switch, it does not have a #8 pole/position as shown in the previous attached diagram. So here is my thoughts on wiring up the switch: 1) run the low amperage hot power wire to pole/position #2 on the switch for switch power 2) a jumper wire from switch pole/position #3 to switch pole/position #7 for the Empty Bulb 3) a jumper wire from switch pole/position #1 to switch pole/position #7 for the Fill Bulb 4) a wire from switch pole/position #1 to the first relay's position #85 as shown in the previous diagram 5) a wire from switch pole/position #3 to the other two relay's position #85 as shown in the previous diagram My questions are: Can I simply run the low amperage ground directly to position #86 on each of the three relays and bypass the switch (no ground wire to the switch itself) since the switch does not have a #8 pole/position? Will the switch function normally without a ground attached directly to the switch with the low voltage ground running directly to the relays? Thanks Any thoughts? Reverible Pump Switch Wiring.doc

Howdy, In the process of reconfiguring my ballast system. I plan to run two Johnson reversible pumps per Enzo sac to fill and drain (eliminating the sprinkler valves for the Enzo sacs). I plan to use a single DPDT (dual pole-dual throw) switch to control the two pumps simultaneously. I have located a diagram on WakeWorld.com that may work, but I am not sure if the creator of the diagram is correct as they show an Eighth pole position on their switch and the DPDT switches I have seen only have Seven poles (7th pole for switch lighting). Looking for advice from anyone who already has this setup or anyone who has electrical knowledge. Please see attached diagram. Many thanks, Dan two pumps one switch diagram.doc

I am not an electrician and I have not experienced the same issue so this may be way-off base, but worth a thought. When I added additional sprinkler valves to my system I was surprised to discover that all of the valves shared a common wire and the second wire going to each valve supplied the electrical current to open the valve. When we pulled back the plastic shielding near the valve's solenoid we found that each set of wires going to each valve had a diode (basically a one-way path for electrical current) crossing from one wire to the other. If this diode becomes inoperative or unattached it could allow electrical current to travel back through the common wire to other valves' solenoid and thus allow them to open. This of course is just a theory. As for the blown circuit breaker, I added an additional Mayfair 1000 drain pump to the port and starboard enzo sacs. The drain pumps would run for a few minutes and then pop the CB. After removing the four screw that hold the CB panel in place I found that the Port 1 and Starboard 1 CBs were only rated at five amps. Each Mayfair 1000 is rated at 3 amps for a total of 6 amp draw. I checked the associated wires on my boat and they are 16 guage. According to the electrical source I found a 16 guage wire can handle a total of 13 amps (the total amount of amps a 16 guage wire can handled varied based on which web site and electrician I talked to, but 13 was the most popular answer). So I replaced the 5 amp CB with a 10 amp CB and problem solved. Agian, I am not an electrician so please do your homework and consult an electrician before proceeding forward. On a side note I did consult Shell and Travis at Fineline, but last word I got from them was that they are still checking into it. Hope this helps, Happy Surfing

Good point! Ballast sacs are like flying cargo, they stay put and they don't complain (unlike friends).

Howdy, After completing the test of pumps and valves combinations, I began assembling a list of parts needed to build my ballast system. If you recall my plan is to utilize two Johnson pumps feeding into the factory 1” manifold incorporating (7) 1” Orbit vales less the internal spring. If you are not familiar with the factory setup, everything after the 1” Orbit valves come stock at ¾”. This got me to wondering if the ¾” hose and fittings after the Orbit valve would impact max flow rate to the sacs/tank. So I picked up Fly High’s 1” W743 & W746 fittings and Fly High’s ¾” W736 & W742 fittings. I first attached Fly High’s 1” W743 & W746 fittings to the 1” ID hose configuration and the results were exactly the same as the previous test of the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 12.25 GPM or 735 GPH (no surprise here, really just a validation test). I then attached the ¾” ID hose from the 1” Orbit valves to Fly High’s ¾” W736 & W742 fittings to see if there was any loss in max flow rate. The rate of flow was reduced by only 0.25 GPM (12 GPM or 720 GPH total flow). After much thought and time spent shopping for parts I have decided to immolate the factory plumbing and go with ¾” everything after the 1” Orbit vales. If one considers that an Enzo sac is approximately 180 gallons and if fed by two Johnson pumps at either 25 GPM total (1” ID hose & Fly High’s 1” W743 & W746 fittings) or 24 GPM total (3/4” ID hose & Fly High’s ¾” W736 & W742 fittings), the difference in time is minuscule (a mere18 seconds; 7.2 minutes vs 7.5 minutes). I then considered the cost factor and it quickly became a difference I can live with. Sorry folks, I have no plans to re-test each of the previous test configurations, but I believe we could probably assume the results would be very similar; a 0.25 GPM reduction in max flow rate. Another piece of my puzzle revealed. Happy Surfing, Dan

Howdy Folks, Today I completed the backyard test of the Johnson Ultra Ballast pump and the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with and without the internal spring installed. I have incorporated the results of these tests into the previous posted test data. To conduct these tests I utilized the following: - Swimming pool (unrestricted water source) - 12 vdc Lawn & Garden Battery with 160 cold cranking amps from Pep Boys - Jabsco Ballast Puppy Advertised @ 11 GPM or 660 GPH - Johnson Ultra Ballast Pump Advertised @ 13.7 GPM or 822 GPH - Mayfair 1000 aerator pump Advertised @ 16.66 GPM or 1000 GPH - Tsunami 1200 aerator pump Advertised @ 20 GPM or 1200 GPH - 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with the internal spring installed - 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without the internal spring installed - 1” brass 12 vdc valve - 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed - 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed - 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose (no kinks) - 3 orange Home Depot 5-gallon buckets measured at 1-gallon increments - Stop watch set to countdown 1 minute with alarm Each setup was tested three separate times to validate the accuracy of the test and the test was not begun until a maximum stream of water had commenced. The “Unrestricted Test” was measured with a 3’ section of 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose from the pool to the pump and a 3’ section of 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose from the pump to the 5 gallon bucket without a valve attached. Each of the pumps and valves were new out of the box. Here are the results for the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pump: Advertised @ 11 GPM or 660 GPH Unrestricted Test: 11.5 GPM or 690 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 8.0 GPM or 480 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH 1” brass 12 vdc valve: 10.0 GPM or 600 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 9.0 GPM or 540 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH Here are the results for the Johnson Ultra Ballast pump: Advertised @ 13.7 GPM or 822 GPH Unrestricted Test: 13.5 GPM or 810 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 12.25 GPM or 735 GPH 1” brass 12 vdc valve: 12.5 GPM or 750 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 12.25 GPM or 735 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 12.5 GPM or 750 GPH Here are the results for the Mayfair 1000 aerator pump: Advertised @ 16.66 GPM or 1000 GPH Unrestricted Test: 10 GPM or 600 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 3 GPM or 180 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH ¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH 1” brass 12 vdc valve: 7.5 GPM or 450 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 5.75 GPM or 345 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 7.75 GPM or 465 GPH Here are results for the Tsunami 1200 aerator pump: Advertised @ 20.0 GPM or 1200 GPH Unrestricted Test: 13 GPM or 780 GPH 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 3 GPM or 180 GP 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH ¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH 1” brass 12 vdc valve: 7.5 GPM or 450 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 6.25 GPM or 375 GPH 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH The height of the 5-gallon bucket utilized was 14.5 inches, but I held the hose slightly above the bucket at approximately 18 inches. Why is this important? For those not familiar with aerator type pumps; aerator type pumps such as the Tsunami 1200 and the Mayfair 1000 move high volumes of water, but at a very low pressure. A pump’s max flow is rated at what is referred to as “Open Flow” or inlet-to-outlet, nothing attached. Anytime an aerator pump has to push water upward there is going to be a significant drop in max flow rate as can be seen with the Tsunami pump which had a tested flow rate of 13 GPM or 780 GPH at 18 inches vertical. Here is a link to the Rule 1100 aerator pump which advertises a flow rate of 18.33 GPM or 1100 GPH, but according to the chart at 3.35’ it flows 13.17 GPM or 790 GPH (a significant drop) http://www.rule-industries.com/files/itemdoc134791.pdf My first concern with removing the internal spring from the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve and the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve was that with no power applied to the valve (valve closed) that there may be a possibility of the inlet pressure unseating the diaphragm and allowing water to pass through the valve. The 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without the internal spring installed remained closed and no water passed through, but the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed initially allowed water to pass through for about 3 seconds and then reseated itself and no additional water passed through. For those wondering, the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pump came with the green colored impeller installed and the battery was recharged between test sets. As can be seen from the test data, removing the internal spring from the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve and the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve had a significant affect on water flow (way to go CenturionSkier!). It also appears from the test that when utilizing either of these two aerator pumps that the diaphragm type valves will have a significant impact on max flow rate. Incorporating a valve also had an impact on the max flow rate of the impeller pumps, but to a lesser degree due to the increased pressure of the impeller type pumps. As Bigshow pointed out, we can probably expect to get a slight increase in output from these pumps if they are being feed 14 vdc from the boats electrical system. So after reviewing the results of these tests here is my plan. I’m planning a five sac system; (2) Enzo Sacs (~1450#), (2) bow sacs (~ 400# each) and a factory center mid-ship tank (~ 250#). I still want my ballast system to be push-button automatic so I plan to utilize seven 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without the internal spring installed and feed each Enzo sac with two of these valves, thus taking advantage of both Johnson pumps at once. All plumbing will be 1” ID . Although the Johnson pump pushing through the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring installed tested at 12.25 GPM or 735 GPH, I expect to loose some flow due to the manifold system and bends in the plumbing. But I should easily meet my goal of filling an Enzo sac in less than 10 minutes with this setup. I prefer the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without the internal spring over the 1” brass 12 vdc valve or the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve due to the availability of replacement parts (Home Depot is just around the corner). In my research I came across an interesting table for max flow rates of Flexible PVC. Here is the link: http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml I have seen where some have touted a 1” hose with a max flow rate of 60 GPM, according to the chart this is possible but the flow rate is at 18 fps (a high pressure not likely to be seen by these type pumps). Referring to the chart we are more likely to expect a max flow rate around 37 GPM (12 fps) based on the pressure of our pumps. Many thanks to the great folks at Texas Sport Boats. Without their help in lending a Jabsco Ballast Puppy we would have a very limited test data set. It’s awesome to have such great dealer support. This completes my tests-I’m officially out of the testing business. Hopefully this data will clear up some misconceptions and help others with their ballast build. I am not very familiar with this site, but if stickies are allowed maybe the administrator will post this one as a sticky as I have not seen any similar test data available on the net and having a sticky beats an extensive search. Best of luck in your ballast build, Cheers Aerator_Pumps_and_Electric_Valves_Test_Final.doc

Centurion uses the Orbit Model #57477 1" Male NPT Jar Top Valve, Gray which can be seen here: http://www.orbitirrigation.com/products/Valves/02/16/01/218/ Cheers

The Irritol 700 valve looks promissing. I will try and find one locally and test it once my new Johnson pumps arrive from Bobby at Max Wake. Here's a link to a spec sheet. Check out the second page where they show the difference in their design to that of other sprinkler valves: http://www.irritrol.com/pdf/sellsheet_700.pdf Thanks for sharing Volzalum I'll get back with the results of the test soon. Cheers

Just a heads-up for others who may be looking for the Johnson pumps. The Johnson pump listed on boatersworldonline for $177 is the Johnson Heavy Duty Impeller Pump Model F3B-19 12V Bronz model F3B-19 (3/8" NPT) and it is not rated at 13.7 GPM. The Johnson pump to look for is the Johnson Ultra Ballast Pump model JS 10-24690-03 (1/2" NPT) or sometimes shown as model 102469003. This is the pump that is rated at 13.7 GPM. I almost pulled the trigger on the wrong pump.

Excellent, thanks.

h20king, Can you post or pm where you found the Johnson's for $169 and if you ordered your pumps from that distributor did you experience any difficulties? Thanks

h20king, Can you post or pm where you found the Johnson's for $169 and if you ordered your pumps from that distributor did you experience any difficulties? Thanks