perko switch with dual batteries help

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

If camo took the red wire from the fuse panel to the common of the battery selector switch then if the switch had the option of "all" then camo could run both batteries at the same time or battery one or battery two at a time never loosing the radio. So at party cove use battery two for radio and when two is low switch to battery one to start the engine then back to "all" to charge both.

And if house battery # 2 is very depleted, the switch can be left on #1, isolating the alternator from #2, yet all electronics are functional because they are connected to the the C post, which is coming directly from the starter's main post. If the house bank is not heavily depleted, then running on "BOTH" retains the function of all electronincs and allows the replenishment of batt-2.

 

If the switch is a make before break, then once the engine is started on #1, it can be rotated over to #2, delivering a little more back to #2.

[truekaotik 458]

If camo took the red wire from the fuse panel to the common of the battery selector switch then if the switch had the option of "all" then camo could run both batteries at the same time or battery one or battery two at a time never loosing the radio. So at party cove use battery two for radio and when two is low switch to battery one to start the engine then back to "all" to charge both.

This will work on both battery scenarios the same... Wether it's depleted or not.. The alternator just sees a shock of a load when switching to Both when dead or nothing when not dead... Either way to be honest... That's the funny thing.. A stereo will run on a almost dead battery.. You can't rail it but, you can hear it... The way they have figured out to isolate the ignition from the stereo is in fact by seperating the loads (start,house)... Something someone has failed to mention.. A beating stereo takes a toll on any one battery set up.. Especially when having a "crank" battery and a "deep" cycle battery... Two totally different batteries.. Running two cranks work, yes.. Running two deeps work, yes.. But not "ideal".. The make-up of the battery is different... Yadda Yadda... He knows.. And with running everything to the "C" post is EXaCTLY doing that.. But hey what do I know..

Edited October 1, 2013 by truekaotik

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

What is this

 

ACR/VSR battery setup

ACR stands for Auto Combining Relay and VSR stands for Voltage sensing Relay. These 2 devices do basically the same thing. They are wired between the main cranking bank and the house bank and sense whether the alternator is charging or not. When there is charge voltage on the line, the ACR/VSR closes and combines the 2 banks, so both battery banks receive a charge from the alternator. When the engine is off, or the load is very heavy on the house bank, the ACR/VSR will open and isolate the main engine battery from the house bank. This prevents the house loads, such as a stereo, A/C, lights, refrigerator, etc, from pulling down the main cranking bank.

 

An ACR/VSR setup is a passive/manual system, where as a basic switch is completely manual. When an ACR/VSR is in the mix, we like to wire all the accessory loads, like stereo, ballast, lighting, and A/C, frig on larger boats, directly to the house bank. The switch can be left as is, because the isolation and combining is done automatically through the ACR/VSR.

[truekaotik 458]

ACR stands for Auto Combining Relay and VSR stands for Voltage sensing Relay. These 2 devices do basically the same thing. They are wired between the main cranking bank and the house bank and sense whether the alternator is charging or not. When there is charge voltage on the line, the ACR/VSR closes and combines the 2 banks, so both battery banks receive a charge from the alternator. When the engine is off, or the load is very heavy on the house bank, the ACR/VSR will open and isolate the main engine battery from the house bank. This prevents the house loads, such as a stereo, A/C, lights, refrigerator, etc, from pulling down the main cranking bank.

 

An ACR/VSR setup is a passive/manual system, where as a basic switch is completely manual. When an ACR/VSR is in the mix, we like to wire all the accessory loads, like stereo, ballast, lighting, and A/C, frig on larger boats, directly to the house bank. The switch can be left as is, because the isolation and combining is done automatically through the ACR/VSR.

Correction..

They do the same thing technically but, without the user manually switching anything... Yes it has a override manual switch for emergencies... Another way to wire it.. Hmmm..

 

Problem with this great set up is that if the house banks is lower than 11 volts it flickers back and forth putting a burst of a load on the alternator. Then it drops beyond its thresh hold and kicks off... Then back on... Ouch..... Early retirement for the alternator I'm affraid...

 

+ and- for any way I'm affraid... Depends on the user and what he wants... What his main goal is... And the money he wants to spend... Many good choices here so far though!!

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Thanks Troy that schematic looks to be on point. I would like to see what drawings true and wylie can come up with.

Troy's PDF diagram is exactly what I would provide. The only difference would be if i was designing a specific diagram. His diagram is spot on as it pertains to the 2 batteries and the switch. past the switch, things may differ for each customer's specific plan. But this doesn't change how the battery banks connect to the switch and what loads connect to the switch and what loads connect directly to the batteries. What would change the schematic for me, would be the introduction of a diode isolator, an ACR/VSR or a stand alone stereo battery bank. In the context of this thread, Troy's PDF is exactly what I provide for my DIY customers and exactly what I do for my in shop customers.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Problem with this great set up is that if the house banks is lower than 11 volts it flickers back and forth putting a burst of a load on the alternator. Then it drops beyond its thresh hold and kicks off... Then back on... Ouch..... Early retirement for the alternator I'm affraid...

This is a very real scenario, glad you brought it up. We teach our users to monitor how low they have depleted the house bank when playing the stereo while at anchor. If its to the point that the ACR/VSR is going to "bounce", all they have to do is move the switch to the "combine" position, and it circumvents the ACR/VSR manually, until the depleted house bank is replenished a little.

 

As noted earlier, an ACR/VSR system is a completely different animal than what the OP has indicated he is doing. I dont really want to get too off topic and mix these two systems up.

[truekaotik 458]

Yes Troys is great for a weekend/ monthly boater that doesn't spend hours at the sandbar railing his system and shuts down without trickle charging between outings.. Done several of these set ups.. Even for guys who trickle charge.. But if your gonna have a system you need to think of adding power.. Whether it be bigger banks or a different wire set up.. We don't know what he really wants or is trying to accomplish.. All I did was say there is more than one way to skin this cat.. Calm down... We've finally did a Balmer digital set up.. That's another way to do it.. Completely isolating both and relying on shore charge alone is another way... Guys in this game don't stick to one way... It's all about the Benjamin's I'm afraid...

[truekaotik 458]

This is a very real scenario, glad you brought it up. We teach our users to monitor how low they have depleted the house bank when playing the stereo while at anchor. If its to the point that the ACR/VSR is going to "bounce", all they have to do is move the switch to the "combine" position, and it circumvents the ACR/VSR manually, until the depleted house bank is replenished a little.

 

As noted earlier, an ACR/VSR system is a completely different animal than what the OP has indicated he is doing. I dont really want to get too off topic and mix these two systems up.

Sweet.. So you solidify the heavy load by using the emergency override to keep the connection... There is a reason it release... The load is over bearing for the alternator to handle... So you lock that heavy load on till it brings the dead battery up? Nice to know, thank you....

[RhuntIII 555]

The way they have figured out to isolate the ignition from the stereo is in fact by seperating the loads (start,house)...

 

True, How would one separate the loads. I'm still picturing Troy's diagram in my head.

 

Camo, I'll try to get a drawing put together of how my batteries and switch are put together. I have had no problems with my set up but if my memory serves me correctly which most of the time it doesn't my batteries are hooked up differently than Troys. Also True suggested in the past (memory serves) that it's better to have the stereo hooked directly to a battery. I also have an aux. fuse panel installed for the ballast system.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Sweet.. So you solidify the heavy load by using the emergency override to keep the connection... There is a reason it release... The load is over bearing for the alternator to handle... So you lock that heavy load on till it brings the dead battery up? Nice to know, thank you....

No, not necessarily. It comes down to knowing how an ACR/VSR or a diode type isolator work. Its about talking with the customer and finding out how they intend to spend a regular day on the water. its about the total scope of the stereo. For boaters with heavy draw systems, large amp hour battery banks, and those that regularly spend a considerable amount of time playing the system while at anchor, we do not recommend going with a ACR/VSR system. We know up front, that "bouncing" is going to be an issue. After talking with many of the VSR/ACR manufacturers, we know the limits of these devices. For these customers, we suggest a traditional dual-battery switch so that large amp hour battery bank can be isolated from the alternator if and when it is deeply depleted.

 

IMO, the ideal candidate for an ACR/VSC is one with a mild 2-3 amp system and single battery house bank and a single main cranking. I agree that a depleted battery is a heavy load for an alternator, but I feel that a single deep-cycle battery is not too heavy of a load for a properly working alternator.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Wylie and true,

 

Why don't y'all draw a simple schematic like camo did while I read y'alls debate.

 

Here is one I did for a DIY customer, earlier this year. Please let me know if there are any questions regarding its functionality.

 

[truekaotik 458]

No, not necessarily. It comes down to knowing how an ACR/VSR or a diode type isolator work. Its about talking with the customer and finding out how they intend to spend a regular day on the water. its about the total scope of the stereo. For boaters with heavy draw systems, large amp hour battery banks, and those that regularly spend a considerable amount of time playing the system while at anchor, we do not recommend going with a ACR/VSR system. We know up front, that "bouncing" is going to be an issue. After talking with many of the VSR/ACR manufacturers, we know the limits of these devices. For these customers, we suggest a traditional dual-battery switch so that large amp hour battery bank can be isolated from the alternator if and when it is deeply depleted.

 

IMO, the ideal candidate for an ACR/VSC is one with a mild 2-3 amp system and single battery house bank and a single main cranking. I agree that a depleted battery is a heavy load for an alternator, but I feel that a single deep-cycle battery is not too heavy of a load for a properly working alternator.

 

Knowing how they and a diode isolator work, your just dancing around... You already posted above that you have your "customers" solidify or manually flip the perko for the dead battery to charge... It's all good man.. Stick with your answers... Plenty of people running different configurations and replacing premature dead batteries and alternators.. Don't worry

Again always a pleasure Wylie, maybe talking down to people is just how you are as a person? Don't know.. Funny you have argued your way as the "ideal" way and I posted a couple not judging any.. Just threw them out their with positives and negatives...

 

 

Camo,

Again, Your fine the way you have it, or you can change to another way, it's your boat buddy..

Edited October 1, 2013 by truekaotik

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

My statements have not wavered and are still on point, even though this thread has transitioned from how best to wire a tradition dual-battery switch, to scenarios concerning the functionality of dual-battery systems with ACR/VSR. I have simply moved from a general statement to a more specific answer in RE to ACR/VSR operation and what systems they are best suited for.

 

There has been no argument in this thread at all! There have been questions asked and different scenarios posted, regarding the functionality and usage of various battery switch configurations. I have simply addressed those, with as much accurate and relevant info as I can. I don't see an argument, I see a technical discussion that benefits the forum members.

 

I am more than happy to continue this discussion with you or anyone else. I am glad to explain why I have adopted one method over another. I am willing to discuss the pros and cons of any battery system configuration. There is no one size fits all battery banks, there is no perfect battery configuration. But, depending on each individual stereo and user, there are some approaches that are better for a particular application, then others.

[scottnorm 9]

Done some research and just need a little help. I have two batteries and picked up a perko switch. I semi understand the principle behind it just want to make sure im hooked up correctly. For reference battery 1 is what i want to start the boat and battery 2 i want to use for evwrything else (accessories, speakers, amp, ect....)

On perko switch setting 1 I have the starting battery positive (battery 1) hooked up, on perko switch setting 2 I have the second battery positive hooked up . The common on the perko has the main red cable from motor hooked to it, the main ground from the boat motor is hooked to battery number 1 with a negative cable going from one battery to the other, so far I believe im hooked up properly right?...?

 

Okay so then I get a touch confused, the main circuit panel with all fuses should have the positive and ground ran to which battery? And what I mean is under the passenger seat where my batteries are is a 50 amp disconnect which im assuming is for the fuses, which battery does the positive and negative go wired go to.

Any help is appreciated.

CAMOJOE, did you get your question answered? I went through this same issue on my boat after completely running the batteries dead on a combined system. I now have completely isolated house battery and starting battery with an asr/vsr. My switch has an "on" "off" and "combined" setting. When "On", the starting battery starts my engine and the house battery runs my stereo/amps. "Combined" is only used if there is an emergency, which has never happened. I confirmed this setup with the manufacturer. I have also installed an onboard trickle charger, which I highly recommend. Since doing this, I haven't had any problems. You can run a search of my posts and get a feel for what kind of sound system I run.