Aerator Pumps & Electric Valves Controlled Test

[h20king 794]

1 without the scupper on the bottom of the boat filling underway is not possible at more than 10 mph (2)the reversible pumps are not that loud not any louder than the factory water puppy.(3)not sure why Duffy had problems maybe he ran them dry to many times and had the old style pumps or maybe an off brand not jabsco as i have never seen one of their pumps fail only the impeller but they now have a new impeller that will last longer and the pumps are specifically designed for ballast systems unlike the cartridge pumps also if mounted properly the impeller can be changed in the boat in 5 min. (3)As far as filling your ballast with the boat not running owner's manual says it's a no no.(4)Cost they can be found on e-bay for $195 if you have three tanks you would only need two pumps the factory system for the center ballast and one new pump per sack for a in boat total of four pumps cost is what you pay value is what you get.cartridge systems are quickly becoming a thing of the past as more and more builders switch to reversible pumps boats with cartridge systems will be outdated and will have a lower resale value IMO I also believe if I was doing a system in an older boat such as duffys that a cartridge system would be the way I would go but to buy a $50,000 boat and put in a $200 ballast system is crazy to me.Like I have said before boats are expensive so to do a build you should come up with a written plan which includes what you want, check costs spend the big dollars where you have to and cut costs on other items.Big dollars should be spent on integrated systems such as the blade or ballast and cut in other areas such as the stereo so as not to negatively affect the value of the boat.So in closing some of you guys will spend thousands of dollars on stereo gear and cheep out on the stuff that is really important.I am not pointing any fingers at anyone or passing judgement but we have a saying at the shop and we see them all the time if you spend more money on your stereo than you will on maintenance and the things that make your boat perform chances are you might be a BARNY BOATER

[LakeSurfer 10]

So in closing some of you guys will spend thousands of dollars on stereo gear and cheep out on the stuff that is really important.I am not pointing any fingers at anyone or passing judgement but we have a saying at the shop and we see them all the time if you spend more money on your stereo than you will on maintenance and the things that make your boat perform chances are you might be a BARNY BOATER

 

This actually makes me laugh. Do you always think your way is the only way. My reality is that I spend a lot more time tubing/swimming with my kids than I do surfing. So I would much rather spend money on a stereo than money cutting my fill time from 15 min to 8 min. In addition, if I can spend $150 and use my current set up that makes sense to me (especially if I can fill my 1,200 lb Avy sacs under 10 min). I am still confused why yours is so much better, other than I would have few hoses in my boat (which I already have and they dont bother me). Otherwise, I still have all of the over fill and empty holes. If I was doing this from scratch on a new boat, your option would be my choice.

 

I appreciate all of your advice and install help. But your opinion is not the only one.

[duffymahoney 10]

I had jabsco ballast puppies. I have no idea what went wrong, never ran them dry etc.. Again my boat is always in a marina. I think the bottom line is both systems have pro's and con's. You can weight them and see which works best for you. To me aerators pumps will always be my favorite, but that's just my opinion. My system drains and fills quickly and silently. Can't wait to surf!

[h20king 794]

I am not saying my way is the only way I to have kids we tube surf wake board and water ski what I am saying is that cartridge systems are old technology I did not build it to be the biggest or the fastest I built it to be reliable and add value to the boat.We did not get many hours on the boat last year because I got married last summer but enough to find the sprinkler valves to be unreliable so I pulled them and built a system centurion should be putting in their boats anyways I also think a remote oil filter's and wind dam's should be standard. you crack me up you will spend$250 on a wind dam which is a piece of plastic some Velcro and a couple pieces of aluminum but you cant see the value in updating your ballast which is an integrated system I think we just see things differently since you are in finance and I work construction we value different things

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Ok gang,

 

I ordered the 1" brass 12vdc solenoid valve today and it should arrive on Friday. My boat should be out of the shop on Wednesday which has the 6 gpm water puppy pump. I'm still looking for anyone in the Houston area that is willing to lend a 10 gpm ballast puppy and/or a 13 gpm Johnson ultra ballast pump in order to perform a more comprehensive test of the sprinkler valve.

 

Anyone? Bueller, Bueller?

[Oldwakedude 0]

Ok gang,

 

I ordered the 1" brass 12vdc solenoid valve today and it should arrive on Friday. My boat should be out of the shop on Wednesday which has the 6 gpm water puppy pump. I'm still looking for anyone in the Houston area that is willing to lend a 10 gpm ballast puppy and/or a 13 gpm Johnson ultra ballast pump in order to perform a more comprehensive test of the sprinkler valve.

 

Anyone? Bueller, Bueller?

 

Well Dan you can see it can get lively here on the crew . Fact of the matter is there is only one right system, the one you install in your boat and are happy with . Like I said before, I am on version 5 and working on version 6 and getting happier with it all the time. One thing to keep in mind is that down here in Houston, don't know why it is but the jabsco impellers (black one) seem to swell and have to be sanded down to make them work again. It has happened to both my pumps and others that I know of, not sure if WakeDoc had just one or both of his done. Thanks to the crew at Texas Sport Boat in Conroe for figuring it out. The Jabsco pump is a good pump, but it does have issues that you will see if you scan the web, here is a link to the CCC thread:

 

http://www.centurioncrew.com/Ballast-Puppy...ller-t1127.html

 

Keep us advised or your progress, really appreciate the efforts .

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Well Dan you can see it can get lively here on the crew . Fact of the matter is there is only one right system, the one you install in your boat and are happy with . Like I said before, I am on version 5 and working on version 6 and getting happier with it all the time. One thing to keep in mind is that down here in Houston, don't know why it is but the jabsco impellers (black one) seem to swell and have to be sanded down to make them work again. It has happened to both my pumps and others that I know of, not sure if WakeDoc had just one or both of his done. Thanks to the crew at Texas Sport Boat in Conroe for figuring it out. The Jabsco pump is a good pump, but it does have issues that you will see if you scan the web, here is a link to the CCC thread:

 

http://www.centurioncrew.com/Ballast-Puppy...ller-t1127.html

 

Keep us advised or your progress, really appreciate the efforts .

 

Thanks for heads-up on the Jabsco impeller. Anyone know of similar issues with the Johnson ballast pumps?

[islander033 2]

... don't know why it is but the jabsco impellers (black one) seem to swell .......

Are the black ones neoprene, nitrile or viton?

 

"JABSCO flexible impellers are available in the following materials:

1. NEOPRENE is the standard impeller material used in most flexible impeller pumps. It offers a wide range of chemical resistant properties. Temperature range: 45°F to 180°F.

2. NITRILE impellers offer compatibility with oil products. It handles a wide range of oils, oil and water emulsions, diesel fuel, lower fraction hydrocarbons, kerosene, lubricating and machine cutting oil. Lower temperatures affect priming ability and performance characteristics. Generally, nitrile performance is 10% below that of neoprene. Temperature range: 50°F to 180°F.

3. VITON impellers are recommended when pumping hydrocarbons, solvents and severely corrosive chemicals. Viton is not recommended for low temperature or high pressure applications. Temperature range: 60°F to 180°F. "

 

Hydrocarbons could make them swell over time depending on the material used.

[Oldwakedude 0]

Ok gang,

 

I ordered the 1" brass 12vdc solenoid valve today and it should arrive on Friday. My boat should be out of the shop on Wednesday which has the 6 gpm water puppy pump. I'm still looking for anyone in the Houston area that is willing to lend a 10 gpm ballast puppy and/or a 13 gpm Johnson ultra ballast pump in order to perform a more comprehensive test of the sprinkler valve.

 

Anyone? Bueller, Bueller?

 

Another thing I forgot to mention, I checked on the valve site you listed above, the electrical specs for the valve (the solenoid) did list "ignition protection". Electrical items mounted in the bilge or engine compartment of the boat are suppose to be "ignition protected" just in case you get a fuel leak and then have a just waiting to be lit.

 

Here is the CFR site:

 

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/183-410-ignition-protection-19764034

 

This site gives a decent explanation and guidance on marine electrical safety.

 

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/elect.htm...on%20Protection

 

If you have the factory sprinkler valves you will note that the solenoid has an "ignition protected" sticker. That means that the design has been tested according to 33 CFR 183.410 and will not cause and explosion if fuel vapors are present (shouldn't be normally, but if something leaks?). Normal sprinkler valves you buy at HD are the same, but the solenoids are not certified.

[Oldwakedude 0]

In case somebody wants to get scientific here is a good sight that explains how the Jabsco or Johnson pumps work (FLEXIBLE IMPELLER)

 

http://www.depcopump.com/catalog108/2.pdf

 

Here is some more on impellers for another (my apologies) boat site:

 

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=30281

 

 

 

Attached is a PDF with the Jabsco and Johnson specs:

Ballast_Pumps.pdf

Edited March 2, 2010 by Oldwakedude

[Oldwakedude 0]

Are the black ones neoprene, nitrile or viton?

 

"JABSCO flexible impellers are available in the following materials:

1. NEOPRENE is the standard impeller material used in most flexible impeller pumps. It offers a wide range of chemical resistant properties. Temperature range: 45°F to 180°F.

2. NITRILE impellers offer compatibility with oil products. It handles a wide range of oils, oil and water emulsions, diesel fuel, lower fraction hydrocarbons, kerosene, lubricating and machine cutting oil. Lower temperatures affect priming ability and performance characteristics. Generally, nitrile performance is 10% below that of neoprene. Temperature range: 50°F to 180°F.

3. VITON impellers are recommended when pumping hydrocarbons, solvents and severely corrosive chemicals. Viton is not recommended for low temperature or high pressure applications. Temperature range: 60°F to 180°F. "

 

Hydrocarbons could make them swell over time depending on the material used.

 

This is my factory stock pump :

 

BALLAST PUPPY -Wakeboard Towboat Ballast Pump

Model 18220-1121

Impeller: Jabsco Neoprene compound

P/N: 6303-0001

 

If you go to this link you will see that the associated p/n is neoprene. The nitrile impeller is p/n 6303-0003 (also black) and the Green one p/n 6303-0107 with material listed as "special", guess it must be a secret . They don't show the yellow one.

 

http://www.fairfieldsupply.com/servlet/the...CFSpeagodCH6vQw

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Another thing I forgot to mention, I checked on the valve site you listed above, the electrical specs for the valve (the solenoid) did list "ignition protection". Electrical items mounted in the bilge or engine compartment of the boat are suppose to be "ignition protected" just in case you get a fuel leak and then have a just waiting to be lit.

 

Here is the CFR site:

 

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/183-410-ignition-protection-19764034

 

This site gives a decent explanation and guidance on marine electrical safety.

 

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/elect.htm...on%20Protection

 

If you have the factory sprinkler valves you will note that the solenoid has an "ignition protected" sticker. That means that the design has been tested according to 33 CFR 183.410 and will not cause and explosion if fuel vapors are present (shouldn't be normally, but if something leaks?). Normal sprinkler valves you buy at HD are the same, but the solenoids are not certified.

 

Good point, I'll call check if these valve are ignigtion protected. I have my douts as they do not make that claim on their web site nor do they have a sticker stating so

[Bigcatpt 408]

if you use the jabsco or johnson reversible pumps use 1" hose and slip them over the intake / output and use a hose clamp rather than use a inside diameter threaded connection. The threaded connection will decrease water flow.

[Foiler 1]

Good point, I'll call check if these valve are ignigtion protected. I have my douts as they do not make that claim on their web site nor do they have a sticker stating so

 

Why not try and design a system without valves? I believe I am trying to achieve the same thing that you are, I don't even use ballast that often so it isn't at the top of my priority list but I have all most finished all of my other mods so it is what I am researching now. I am pretty sure that it can be done without valves if you have a pump for each bag. Not sure if you are going to have a pump for each bag and i just remembered you mentioned mid tanks and I haven't seen the enzo set up but I would think the best bet would be to remove all those tanks and get Enzo sacs and then you could have a pump per bag for sure. Obviously you would need valves if you had more tanks then pumps but from what I can tell so far having a pump per bag without valves would be the best. I have been told that it can be done with vented loops and Duffy does it with check valves. This is what I will be looking into now and will try and post up any info as I find it. If anyone else has done this without using any valves I appreciate any input.

 

Duffy do you think your system would still work good if it was done completely with spring loaded check valves?

 

Edit: Woops just reread the original post and see you are using Enzo bags. I guess the real question is how to keep the water from flowing when you don't want it to with the least amount of restriction. Obviously the sprinkler valves are not a good option, Duffy posted a huge gate valve once too. So now to figure out, Valves, vented loops or check valves????

Edited March 2, 2010 by Foiler

[duffymahoney 10]

I have custom avalanche sacs. Me and bigcat have the same basic sacs. I think spring loaded check valves would work, but they will decrease flow. The ones I have on my vents and empty pumps are adjustable. I can set the pressure they trip at. I have no sprinkler valves on my boat. Centurion didn't use to build their systems that way. They changed in 05-06. The large gate valved I posted a while ago was from someone elses build on wakeworld.

[Foiler 1]

Found a pretty good thread on improving the ballast without the sprinkler valves:

 

http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4595

 

There seems to be plenty of people in the Supra and Moomba forums that have the same type of system that we have using 1 pump and sprinkler valves. It has become obvious that those sprinkler valves have to go!!

 

It appears (so far) that the cheapest, easiest and best performing way to go is to use an aerator pump for each bag and these can easily be wired to the wires that were previously going to the sprinkler valves and 3 Mayfair 1000's would be the perfect choice since they match our "out" pumps. Have to grind down the scupper intake or replace it with a mushroom style so it doesn't force feed. These mods are pretty much a given for me at this point and I think all 3 pumps can be fed off of the original 1" intake and ball valve especially since once the 250lb center tank is full that only 2 pumps would be running off of it.

 

The only thing that is still a little questionable to me is how to keep the water from flowing when the pumps are off.

1. Vented loops (the option that I am in favor of at this point) recommended from Jason at Wakemakers where I recently ordered some stuff from.

2. Check valves, because this is what Duffy uses and his stuff seems to be working

3. replacing the sprinkler valves with some higher flowing valves (seems expensive and more complicated with no real benefit unless you are trying to run only one pump)

4. replace the ball valve at the hull with a free flowing electric version (haven't looked into this yet or seen an example but I am still looking)

[duffymahoney 10]

I use swing type 1-way valves. They need to be mounted correctly. They work great and barely if at all affect flow. Each pump has it's own. Works great, had this system in 3 boats never had a fail or stuck valve. You can pick them up at most hardware stores. Wakemakers has one but I have never used it. Good luck.

[Foiler 1]

Also found this were the owner used a 3" gate valve, this looks like a very high flowing system to me. I would probably change the 90 on the through hull fitting to brass and keep the manual ball valve right after that but I bet this would perform well.

 

 

 

http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.p...ht=vented+loops

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Another thing I forgot to mention, I checked on the valve site you listed above, the electrical specs for the valve (the solenoid) did list "ignition protection". Electrical items mounted in the bilge or engine compartment of the boat are suppose to be "ignition protected" just in case you get a fuel leak and then have a just waiting to be lit.

 

Here is the CFR site:

 

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/183-410-ignition-protection-19764034

 

This site gives a decent explanation and guidance on marine electrical safety.

 

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/elect.htm...on%20Protection

 

If you have the factory sprinkler valves you will note that the solenoid has an "ignition protected" sticker. That means that the design has been tested according to 33 CFR 183.410 and will not cause and explosion if fuel vapors are present (shouldn't be normally, but if something leaks?). Normal sprinkler valves you buy at HD are the same, but the solenoids are not certified.

 

 

I spoke with the valve supplier. These valves are made in China and as far as he is aware the valves have not been ignition protection certified. Although not the same, the supplier did point out that these coils are a water tight coil so that nothing gets in and nothing gets out concept.

[Live Laugh & Surf 0]

Howdy Folks,

 

Follow up to the previous test. I was unable to obtain access to a Johnson Ultra Ballast Pump (advertised @ 13.7 GPM), but I was able to get my hands on a new out of the box Jabsco Ballast Puppy (advertised @ 11 GPM) and also a new 1” brass 12 vdc valve from ebay which can be seen here http://cgi.ebay.com/1-Electric-Solenoid-Va...414081529492110

 

To conduct this test I had the following:

- Swimming pool (unrestricted water source)

- 12 vdc Lawn & Garden Battery with 160 cold cranking amps from Pep Boys

- Jabsco Ballast Puppy Advertised @ 11 GPM

- 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve

- 1” brass 12 vdc valve

- 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose (no kinks)

- 4 orange Home Depot 5-gallon buckets measured at 1-gallon increments

- Stop watch set to count down 1 minute with alarm

 

Each setup was tested three separate times to validate the accuracy of the test and test was not begun until a maximum stream of water had commenced.

 

Here are the results for the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pump:

Unrestricted: 11.5 GPM or 690 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 8.0 GPM or 480 GPH

1” brass 12 vdc valve: 10.0 GPM or 600 GPH

 

Below are the results from the previous tests for comparison:

 

Here are the results for the Mayfair 1000 aerator pump:

Unrestricted: 10 GPM or 600 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 3 GPM or 180 GPH

¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH

 

Here are results for the Tsunami 1200 aerator pump:

Unrestricted: 13 GPM or 780 GPH

1” Orbit Jar Top Valve: 3 GPM or 180 GPH

¾” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH

 

As can be seen above, the Jabsco Ballast Puppy unrestricted flowed 0.5 GPM better than advertised. The 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve performed much better with the impeller pump than with the aerator pumps, but still has a flow loss (3.5 GPM) due to valve design/function. The 1” brass 12 vdc valve also had flow loss (1.5 GPM) due to valve design/function, but the 1” brass 12 vdc valve had 2 GPM less loss than the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve. My assumption for the difference is because the 1” brass 12 vdc valve electrically pulls the internal diaphragm up to allow water to flow, whereas the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve moves a pin to allow pressure to equalize on both sides of the diaphragm and then the inlet water pressure actually displaces the diaphragm upward to allow water flow.

 

So if you are thinking of replacing the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with the 1” brass 12 vdc valve there is one major safety issue to consider. The 1” brass 12 vdc valve is NOT ignition protection certified and the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve IS ignition protection certified. Personally, I have a hard time seeing the 1” brass 12 vdc valve NOT being ignition protection as being an actual safety hazard if the valve is ordered with the water tight coil, but I am not an electrician and thus cannot recommend utilizing the 1” brass 12 vdc valve. You will have to decide your own level of safety here.

 

From my research the best option for maximum flow is to run a line directly from the pump to the affected sac or for multiple sacs utilizing less pumps a manifold with manual ball valves. If you want to go with electric valves, once you get past these two electric valves the cost of valves skyrockets (electric ball valves are very expensive).

 

I hope these backyard tests help those seeking to design their own ballast system. It certainly cleared up some of my own misconceptions. I tried to keep the tests as scientific and rigorous as possible. If I can get my hands on a Johnson Ultra Ballast Pump in the near future, I’ll be sure to post the results.

 

 

Cheers