Amp questions

[bcollins 18]

Hey guys, I was looking at this amp, P600.2, to power my tower speakers, KM6500.2, and was a little surprised at the drop in wattage between 14.4V and 12V. Normally I see something like a 15% drop, according to the descriptions from the manufacturer….assuming they even list it for both, but this is nearly a 50% drop from 14.4V to 12V. I absolutely have no idea what any of this means but at 190 watts I’m happy and at 100 watts, not so much. I have no idea what voltage a typical battery operates at so I’m going to assume it’s somewhere in between…anyway, any thoughts on this amp and what I could realistically expect to see per channel if I bought it? Also, is this pretty typical and should I assume most amp’s listed “RMS” is at 14V and realistically is much less when put into actual use in the boat?

 

RMS Power Rating (14.4V):

4 ohms:190 watts x 2 chan.

RMS Power Rating (12V):

4 ohms: 100 watts x 2 chan.

 

Long story short, my old hifonics amp, which claimed 250 watts x 2, took a dump on me apparently so I need a new one. I’ve tested it to death and can’t get sound out of it even though it powers on. All this is probably a waste of time as I’m probably just going to get an older Kicker IX500.4 amp as suggested by Phil in old posts but I was pretty close to pulling the trigger on the P600.2 due to the price difference between the two (about half price) until I saw this.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Yes, its not uncommon to see up to 25% reduction in power form 14.5V to 12.5, unless it has a regulated power supply such as the JL HD series.

 

Out of the Kicker lineup, the IX500.4 is still the best, but the IX line has been replaced by the new KX line. They have a 200W x 2 KM and KMX 400.4 is the best option.

 

The Arc XDi804 is 240W rms x 2 @ 4 ohm at 14.5 and has a good price point, but U think that "V1" line is being phased out. The "V2" series XDi450.4 delivers 250W rms @ 4 ohm at 14.5 and is about the same price.

[crew chief 4]

Wylie, Which Amp do You Think Is The Better Amp.

Arc Or Wet sound

[bcollins 18]

Thanks fellas, I should probably admit that I am on a bit of a budget so I'm not necessarily looking for the best...just something that works well, lasts, and will produce good results. I realize I can't really do that with a cheap amp like I did with the hifonics....which I should admit I was happy with until it died on me. I assume Wylie probably gathered that from the couple of amps I listed and provided a nice list of amps that fit the bill and are in my price range. I'm kind of in that middle range and would prefer a Class D amp due to their size and efficiency although it's not a deal breaker. Unlike some of the people on this forum, my boat use is minimal and I don't sit in coves or on sandbars blaring music often and I'm really just looking for music at 70feet which the Kickers and my old amp provided very nicely; however, I'm willing to spend a little more to get something with a bit more longevity and will stand up better to the 100+ heat when I'm out in Parker, AZ.

Honestly, the original intent of the question was to get an idea of what it meant when trying to decipher the RMS ranges described by the manufacturer as they are a bit misleading and how they relate to the speakers suggested RMS range. I’m probably using RMS wrong but you get the idea. If a speaker suggests an RMS of 150 watts and I find an amp that puts out 190 14.4v and 100 at 12v then realistically is this a good amp for the application? I did read somewhere else that a battery, when the engine is running, is typically in the 13.5V range which suggests the loss from 14.4V is minimal. Anyway, as much as I appreciate AMP suggestions I will probably end up with the IX500.4, I know it’s discontinued but you can still find them for around $250 new, since Phil from Kicker suggested that and even laid out how to set the amp for the best experience on another forum. So the question was more to try and understand than to go out and apply the knowledge when trying to decide on an amp since I’ve kind of already done that.

 

Anyway, thanks guys and all help is appreciated.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Wylie, Which Amp do You Think Is The Better Amp.

Arc Or Wet sound

Wet Sounds makes 3 series of marine amps, Arc makes 5 series of automotive amps. Beyond that, its too general of a questions to actually answer. If 2 amps have similar output, then the marine one gets the nod. Similar power, similar efficiency, similar quality, then price point gets factored in. Lots of variables, but I have used all 3 lines of the Wet Sounds and plenty of the Arc KA, XDi V1 amps and now the XDi V2 amps that are starting to ship. The better one is the one that best fits the plan as a whole.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Thanks fellas, I should probably admit that I am on a bit of a budget so I'm not necessarily looking for the best...just something that works well, lasts, and will produce good results. I realize I can't really do that with a cheap amp like I did with the hifonics....which I should admit I was happy with until it died on me. I assume Wylie probably gathered that from the couple of amps I listed and provided a nice list of amps that fit the bill and are in my price range. I'm kind of in that middle range and would prefer a Class D amp due to their size and efficiency although it's not a deal breaker. Unlike some of the people on this forum, my boat use is minimal and I don't sit in coves or on sandbars blaring music often and I'm really just looking for music at 70feet which the Kickers and my old amp provided very nicely; however, I'm willing to spend a little more to get something with a bit more longevity and will stand up better to the 100+ heat when I'm out in Parker, AZ.

Honestly, the original intent of the question was to get an idea of what it meant when trying to decipher the RMS ranges described by the manufacturer as they are a bit misleading and how they relate to the speakers suggested RMS range. I’m probably using RMS wrong but you get the idea. If a speaker suggests an RMS of 150 watts and I find an amp that puts out 190 14.4v and 100 at 12v then realistically is this a good amp for the application? I did read somewhere else that a battery, when the engine is running, is typically in the 13.5V range which suggests the loss from 14.4V is minimal. Anyway, as much as I appreciate AMP suggestions I will probably end up with the IX500.4, I know it’s discontinued but you can still find them for around $250 new, since Phil from Kicker suggested that and even laid out how to set the amp for the best experience on another forum. So the question was more to try and understand than to go out and apply the knowledge when trying to decide on an amp since I’ve kind of already done that.

 

Anyway, thanks guys and all help is appreciated.

 

Ive been running an IX500.4 for 3 years now on my display, to power the exact setup. Even though its a discontinued model, I will run the amp until it dies, its just behind the scenes now.

 

Amp RMS v's speaker rms: Amp output is easily measured, where as a speakers RMS and peak recommendation, is just that, a recommendation. Amp output is measured using very specific parameters. Its hard to measure what a speaker will actually handle as music is so dynamic. Speaker manufactures use the cone size, voice coil size, speaker type and application, to calculate the RMS and Peak.

 

As an end user, we take those speaker RMS/Peak calculations, and match them to an amp. Way too much wattage, as in near the peak, will easily damage a speaker. The typical failure is a melted voice coil. Way too little power will never damage a speaker, but continually driving the amp into a clipped state, because its not loud enough, can damage the speaker.

 

So, knowing that the KM6500.2/KMTS67 (new model number) has a 200 rms/400 peak, and knowing that with a typically charging charging system we will never see those 14.5V rms ratings, it never hurts to pair up to an amp that overshoots the speakers RMS.

 

In the case of the P600.2. Its 190 rms @ 4 ohm at 14.5V. This has it just shy of the speaker's RMS IF we would actually see the full RMS/voltage output. With the engine off, whats called static battery voltage, that same amp is now down to 100W rms. That WAY below where that speakers will perform best at.

[bcollins 18]

Thanks Wylie, good to hear you're running that same amp in your shop. I also appreciate the explanation, makes sense and confirms a couple other things I read when I did a search. I think ultimately I was just surprised to see such a drop on the P600.2 when the other amps I've looked at didn't seem to have such a significant drop from 14.4V to 12V so I just wondered why that was. I also looked at those HD amps for shiggles and it confirmed they had the same output regardless of voltage, I'm sure it's more than that but you get the idea. Would be nice but you're definitely paying for it. Anyway, thanks again.

[Rossterman 0]

Why don't you just spend $60 more and get the ppi900.4 and bridge it? I have the polk equivalent PAD400.4 and it is an amazing amp for the money! Ppi is the sister amp for ~30% less cash. I've already blown some kicker speakers due to the power melting the capacitors and had to lower the gain.

[bcollins 18]

I considered the ppi900.4 but bridged its double the max watts recommended for the km6500.2. I could be wrong but I think I saw a post where Phil strongly recommrnded against it due to the amps output. But you're right, I heard its a great amp and seems like a bunch of people are pushing their Revs with them. Im pretty uneducated when it comes to marine/car audio so I was worried I could blow the speakers with to much power so I went with the amp quite a few people suggested.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

The ppi900.4 has the potential to WAY over power the KM5200. Even more than that, that amp board seems to really lake the sound quality, as compared to other more premium amp, when in bridge mode. They really lack depth and dynamics, yet they can drive a speaker loud.

[Rossterman 0]

Wilie,

True there is more than ample power so just need to turn down the gain. I run this amp (polk version) on a set of kicker 6500.2s (4 total speakers) and they sound great. To be fair, I did blow the first of the mid bass speakers because I ran them too hard. Also interested in your comments on sound quality. I did a fair bit of reading on this amp from professional reviewers with all the testing equipment and they said the exact opposite- where is your info coming from?

 

Here's a short quote from car audio mag that gave it very high marks:

In my listening rooms reference system, the PA D4000.4 proved to be a capable performer, delivering smooth and well detailed sound, with no apparent signature of its own. The amplifier proved to have an inaudible noise floor, and great dynamics. I found the amp to have more than adequate power, and the cleverly designed independent crossovers with x10 frequency multipliers allow the amp to be set up in high pass, low pass or very useful bandpass modes in addition of course to full-range. Rest of the actual measuing using test instruments said the same thing. BTW- polk, NVX, and PPI all share the same the same chassis and circuitry.

 

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/test-reports/2049-test-report-polk-audio-pa-d40004-amplifier-

The ppi900.4 has the potential to WAY over power the KM5200. Even more than that, that amp board seems to really lake the sound quality, as compared to other more premium amp, when in bridge mode. They really lack depth and dynamics, yet they can drive a speaker loud.

Wilie,

True there is more than ample power so just need to turn down the gain. I run this amp (polk version) on a set of kicker 6500.2s (4 total speakers) and they sound great. To be fair, I did blow the first of the mid bass speakers because I ran them too hard. Also interested in your comments on sound quality. I did a fair bit of reading on this amp from professional reviewers with all the testing equipment and they said the exact opposite- where is your info coming from?

 

Here's a short quote from car audio mag that gave it very high marks:

In my listening rooms reference system, the PA D4000.4 proved to be a capable performer, delivering smooth and well detailed sound, with no apparent signature of its own. The amplifier proved to have an inaudible noise floor, and great dynamics. I found the amp to have more than adequate power, and the cleverly designed independent crossovers with x10 frequency multipliers allow the amp to be set up in high pass, low pass or very useful bandpass modes in addition of course to full-range.

 

Rest of the actual measuring using test instruments said the same thing. BTW- polk, NVX, and PPI all share the same the same chassis and circuitry. Full comprehensive test is linked below.

 

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/test-reports/2049-test-report-polk-audio-pa-d40004-amplifier-

Edited May 26, 2014 by Rossterman

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

Rossterman,

 

I do not do professional reviews, but, my info comes from personal experience with HLCDs such as Wet Sounds, Kicker, Exile, Bullet, NVS and Krypt, and full-range coaxials from the same as well as JL, rockford Polk, Phoenix Gold (Roswell) and more. I have installed or tuned many of these speaker with amps such as Wet Sounds, Kicker, JL, Arc, Rockford, Polk, PPI, Powerbass, RE Audio, Sony, Clarion, Soundstorm, Soundstream. So my comments were actual personal opinion, not taken from other's.