JL AUDIO 13W6V2D4

[PayCheck 20]

i got lots of amazon money this christmas, and i am trying to buy this in the next few months. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TDCNMQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ARYO0SGB48ZCP

anyone have any amplifiers ideas? i need a decent, but inexpensive amp. i am replacing it next year once i get more money for a better one. also need box ideas. thanks in advance

[truekaotik 458]

Get it for sure! Box and amp ideas we can throw around... Just get that bia and email me I will give you any info or build specs you need!! You won't be disappointed !!! That's what I got for Xmas ;-)

Edited December 25, 2011 by truekaotik

[DavidEM 1]

PayCheck,

That is truly a fantastic woofer. However, you should be aware of several sound design considerations before jumping too quickly.

You should always determine the limits and type of subwoofer enclosure BEFORE you select the particular woofer. Past a point, the enclosure will be more responsible for the deep bass performance than the driver. The two are not independent. So put the horse before the cart and decide on the maximum woofer enclosure displacement, the woofer and port orientation (if applicable) and the enclosure type. The enclosure should dictate the woofer to a great degree.

The particular woofer will dictate the right amount of power and the right amplifier selection. So what is the difference between a JL Audio 13W1, 13W3, 13W6 and 13W7? All the benefits of each upgrade will demand more power for you to see those benefits. As you increase power handling and excursion in order to get more output and lower the deep bass extension you are creating a more muscular woofer but also a much more massive woofer in respect to the moving parts. With each increment you need more power to hear an advantage. One of the biggest mistakes would be to under-power a more powerful woofer. A far less expensive combination that is well balanced can actually out-perform a far more expensive mismatch.

If its an open boat rather than an enclosed vehicle cabin you need to be right at the top of JL's recommended power range....and I mean in the most conservative sense.

You can eliminate 20 to 25 percent of an unregulated amplifiers 14.4 volt rated power at 12.5 volts supply. You can easily eliminate another 15 percent of its 1 kHz rated power at 50 Hz.

So if you want to properly power a JL Audio 13W6 you should have an amplifier that honestly delivers 600 watts at 50 Hz with a 12.5 volt supply or about 1000 watts as most amplifiers are over-rated by less than realistic qualifiers. That is definitely not going to be an inexpensive amplifier.

I realize this is a bit technical. Sorry for that. In this case I feel its necessary to substantiate the "why" and "how-to".

So to re-cap. Sub enclosure size and type always comes first which didtates the specific woofer. The woofer in turn dictates the right amplifier. The balance and match is far more critical to the final performance than the unrealized potential of an isolated component.

 

David

Earmark Marine

[truekaotik 458]

Your one bored dude David. Lol you think too hard most of the time to get the same results. He can surely buy a sub and build around that, it is not putting the horse before the carriage, sorry bro... That's how we build all our systems, it's what the customer wants...

Edited December 26, 2011 by truekaotik

[DavidEM 1]

Truekaotik,

No, I am not bored. I just look at things a little differently and more deeply than most. I'm not contradicting anyone else and just giving the best advice that I can based on my own knowledge and my own experiences. Please don't step on my posts. We are all entitled to our own opinions. There's no need for you to comment on mine if we don't agree.

I don't want to see a guy underpower his sub or place the sub in an undersized enclosure. My response was strictly for the OP and no one else.

Thanks.

 

David

Earmark Marine

[truekaotik 458]

And I'm replying to you David, as you did him. Your wrong, the sub you choose decides the "limit and type of enclosure" NOT the other way around plain and simple.. Read the post anyways, he didn't ask for a disortation, he said he WAS getting that sub. He Only asked what amp to recommend and box ideas. Listen to the customer salesman... Also if you are replying only to him, IM him, this is a forum for all Centurion Crew..Roflmao

 

Paycheck,

Do what you want, a real installer can accommodate to you and what product you choose...

[truekaotik 458]

i got lots of amazon money this christmas, and i am trying to buy this in the next few months. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TDCNMQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ARYO0SGB48ZCP

anyone have any amplifiers ideas? i need a decent, but inexpensive amp. i am replacing it next year once i get more money for a better one. also need box ideas. thanks in advance

Questions:

Do prefer marine amps or auto amps? That will help narrow it down.

Price range for amp?

Do you prefer slot ported, ported or sealed for the box? Seald will be the smallest air space, ported styles need slightly more air space.

What type of music do you listen to? Doesn't matter really but helps a little.

Once you pick the style of box you want and amp, then you can configure the air space and what frequency range your box will run. JL has more than one recommended air space.

Edited December 26, 2011 by truekaotik

[DavidEM 1]

To Truekaotik,

That's okay and you are entitled to your opinion. I'd rather not argue. I'd prefer to be respectful. I only ask the same. I'm always prepared to substantiate in greater detail any opinion that I state. Perhaps asking for more clarification or explanation in other terms would be the polite thing to do if you find something so disagreable. Others might benefit from the exchange also. There is always a tiny, little chance that my perspective could be valid.

To PayCheck,

I don't consider you a customer as you have clearly stated you are buying from Amazon with Amazon money. And I wouldn't openly solicit in any case on a forum that does not permit solicitation which I fully respect. But if I were a salesperson then I would behave much like a doctor when a patient came to him. I wouldn't provide a precription based on the patient's own diagnosis and prognosis. I would ask a few qualifiers first, provide him with an education and then allow him to make an informed decision whether the treatment is with my office or another. And I wouldn't argue if he didn't follow my recommendation. And since this is just stereo and not critical like health then in the end I would always give him what he wants. After all, if I gave him an education first then he couldn't hold me accountable if the results were less than expected. Its just a matter of style. Another way is just different...not wrong.

In this case I'm just appealing to you as a boat stereo enthusiast with no expectation other than you read with an open mind.

 

David

Earmark Marine

[PayCheck 20]

truekaotik, i am looking to buy a CHEAP marine amp, as i will be replacing it next winter with a better one. $ is limited! i listen to dubstep, rap, country, pretty much anything depending on who is riding!

 

david, i do see why the box would matter, and how mismatching can effect the outcome. i ahve done some research, and the box supposivly needs to be 14x16x18. my cousin is installing his old 12w6 and it worked great with whatever he had, the box wasnt huge but not small. i am going to build a box according to what can fit in the boat and what JL or someone here recommends

 

i am open to all recommendations for amps,

[DavidEM 1]

Paycheck,

A JL Audio MHD750/1 would be a great match with the 13W6. Its strictly regulated so it will deliver its full power under any normal circumstances. Its a premium amplifier so that may have to wait for the eventual upgrade.

Alpine has a non-marine MRX-M100 that is listed under $400 (have no idea what the actual street price may be) which is rated on a more liberal basis at 1000 watts. It might not take full advantage of the 13W6 but its a bargain for what it does.

Look into Kicker, Arc Audio or any number of name brand products. Just stay away from the cheap brands that boast 1000 watts, have a 40 amp fuse and a 10 gauge supply 'cause it just ain't so.

 

Here are some enclosure recommendations.

GOOD:

A 13W6 in a sealed enclosure with an external displacement of 2.34 cu ft (18x16x14") will be at half power at 41 Hz. Its got a middle of the road system Qtc that has a pretty smooth response. Anything smaller for this sub in a sealed box would be a mistake in the context of an open boat.

BETTER:

A 12W6 in a bass-reflex enclosure with an external displacement of 2.72 cu ft (only 17 percent larger and at 18.815x16.815x14.815" is barely a measurable increase) will be at half power at 33 Hz so more bottom end than the sealed 13W6 and it would be a little more responsive overall. I wouldn't differentiate much between sealed and ported in a boat environment as long as the bass-reflex alignment is a well damped one.

BEST:

A 13W6 in a bass-reflex enclosure with an external displacement of 3.32 cu ft (still managable at 19.96x17.96x15.96") will be at half power at 34 Hz. So the same deep bass extension is about equal as the ported 12W6 but with about 1.5 dB more output which is equivalent to about a 50 percent increase in amplifier power.

If we were talkin' a 10-inch sub then we wouldn't be concerned about a fit issue. The above is why I look at the available external displacement first when we start getting into the larger subs. And, you definitely do not want to move a sub over to the port locker just to facilitate a larger one. Just my personal approach. I keep a table so that once I know the available external displacement I can immediately go to task. You can move around the dimensions of a ported box (which is what I did to make the three examples more symmetrical and easier to compare) as long as you maintain the same internal displacement, port length and port surface area. The shape of the enclosure and port is flexible within reason. Beyond that you can also change the bass-reflex alignment to a limited degree without creating some compromises. This is done on a computer using the woofer's Thiele Small Parameters that every woofer manufacturer supplies. Finally, in a boat, normally the best sounding sub is the one where the limitations of the driver or amplifier are never revealed. From there its very important that the collective midbass of your in-boat coaxials are competitive with your subwoofer as most of your bass pitch accuracy and tonal definition will come from a good balance between the two. If you listen to a variety of music then a musically plausible sub is going to be important.

Have fun with this.

David

Earmark Marine

[truekaotik 458]

Throw a cheap auto amp on it then if your just using it a year... The cheapest and decent amp prolly will be a audio pipe 18001D... You will run it at 2 ohms with your DVC and push 1100 watts to it... It's not true but people around here eat them up for around $200 and it will beat that 13 good enough... Now that's CHEAP, like you asked... You can find it on eBay. You will be able to get any airspace configuration you want under the dash for that 13, it's the internal cubic space that matters, not the outside dementions. If you like alot of SPL, go slot ported.. Most people won't notice the distortion slot ported puts out and it is easy to distort ported enclosures so watch your tuning.

[DavidEM 1]

Its very 'true' what truekaotik wrote about protecting a sub driver in a bass-reflex enclosure. An S.P.L. model with a higher tuning frequency leaves a woofer more vulnerable while a lower SQ tuning frequency barely above the woofer natural resonance provides better protection. In any case a subsonic filter is essential if you plan on beating on it and also stay away from using a built-in bass boost. A bass-reflex woofer can give you a solid 3 dB increase (which is equal to double the amplifier power...so its a very serious bump in output) but in doing so it has a steeper roll-off below most usable frequencies. So its a give and take like every speaker design. Really low synthetic bass combined with an aggressive bass boost below the tuning bandwidth is deadly because the woofer is essentially undamped at the lowest registers. Normally there isn't much progam material that low at any degree of amplitude so its safe....unless the system set up is wrong or tuned wrong.

 

David

Earmark Marine

[LakeSurfer 10]

Just an observation:

 

I am running the 12W6 pushed by JL HD 750 amp. It hits so hard that the cup holders actual bounce in the air! The reason I bring this up is because I had the WS XXX pushed by 800 watts in my last boat (which hit very hard as well). The box I had to build for that sub took up nearly all of the space under the driver's helm (which I am guessing will be about the size of box you will need for the 13W6). However, the 12W6 box allows me to keep a lot more leg room under the driver's helm.

 

I am sure the 13W6 will pound once you have the right amp/box. However, I am not sure I would give up the leg room to put it in my boat.

[Wylie_Tunes 146]

To the OP,

 

David IS a real installer and not a salesman trying to move whats on the shelf and "make" it work in every application. He approaches every system, whether in his shop or someone posting on a forum, with a custom perspective. He is dead on with his advise. The allowable space for a box needs to be considered first, then the sub, then the amp. Building a cookie-cutter box that fits the boat and stuffing it with what ever driver the owner wants will consistently have inconsistent result.

 

No one is saying do not go with the that JL, just step back and pause first.

[PayCheck 20]

Just an observation:

 

I am running the 12W6 pushed by JL HD 750 amp. It hits so hard that the cup holders actual bounce in the air! The reason I bring this up is because I had the WS XXX pushed by 800 watts in my last boat (which hit very hard as well). The box I had to build for that sub took up nearly all of the space under the driver's helm (which I am guessing will be about the size of box you will need for the 13W6). However, the 12W6 box allows me to keep a lot more leg room under the driver's helm.

 

I am sure the 13W6 will pound once you have the right amp/box. However, I am not sure I would give up the leg room to put it in my boat.

 

i agree with what you are saying, but i dont think we are putting it under the driver. the box is going to be at least 12x16x18, approx.

 

and i have already picked out a box im going to make, i have had it planned for awhile, but not made it as i have not been in the boat recently y\to do all measurments. the minimum air space required is 1.625 cubic feet. so ill be workin on that this spring!

[LakeSurfer 10]

 

i agree with what you are saying, but i dont think we are putting it under the driver. the box is going to be at least 12x16x18, approx.

 

and i have already picked out a box im going to make, i have had it planned for awhile, but not made it as i have not been in the boat recently y\to do all measurments. the minimum air space required is 1.625 cubic feet. so ill be workin on that this spring!

 

just my 2 cents. I think a smaller sub under the driver's helm will sound much better than a larger sub in the ski locker.

 

 

Either way, sounds like you are set and have thought about it. I bet it will sound great when you get it done.

[PayCheck 20]

Sounds like you know what your talkin about. What's the main difference between puttin the sub in the ski locker as opposed to under the driver?

[DavidEM 1]

I'd certainly like to add a comment or two on that question.

 

The port ski locker is surounded by a thick wall fiberglass console structure plus a thick and dense observer seat cushion. You are going to lose 5 to 6 dB of valuable output. To put that into perspective a 6 dB loss is equivalent to a 75 percent drop in amplifier power. So the woofer and amplifier are both going to have to work inordinately hard to produce the same output. And that is never as clean. The best sounding subwoofer and amplifier combination will be the one that conceals the limitations by conservative operation. And that pertains to efficiency. Also, the large displacement of that locker and the adjoining compartments such as the gunnel cavity represent an enormous displacement. Being a large air mass its very compliant and absorbs alot of acoustical energy...even more so in the midbass where the locker tends to filter the transients, attack and tonal construction of the bass. There isn't much impetus to drive the bass radiation out of that locker. You can still get alot of indiscriminant boom and rumble out of there but essentially you have created more of a 'boat shaker' than a musical 'bass maker'.

 

Now if you use the starboard driver's helm console you can expose the woofer and port in a direct radiating configuration thereby completely nullifying the impact of the console. Or, you can side-fire the woofer toward the hull and use the surrounding planes as reinforcement. The bass energy will vent unimpeded over the top of the open facade/kick panel. In this location you will get more overall output with a great deal more pitch accuracy and tonal definition in the bass region. The woofer output will also couple better with the output of the coaxials for more of a seamless transition.

 

A 13.5" sub has about 29 percent more surface area than a 12" sub and can produce about 1.5 dB more output with all things remaining equal. Thats a significant increase as long as its not dimished by its location. I wouldn't trade 1.5 dB of added potential for a certain 5 dB in loss. Remember that a well-damped SQ bass-reflex enclosure can still deliver 3 dB more output in the crucial bass region over a sealed enclosure. You have to look at the entire woofer/enclosure combination and not just the raw size of the woofer.

 

Location comes first which dictates the next consideration. Enclosure comes second which dictates the next consideration. And the largest woofer doesn't win out in every application. Its just smart to take what each individual boat gives you in the most optimum manner.

 

David

Earmark Marine

[LakeSurfer 10]

Sounds like you know what your talkin about. What's the main difference between puttin the sub in the ski locker as opposed to under the driver?

 

I am not sure what Dave said, but from my general Joe perspective a sub in the ski locker

 

1. takes up needed space

2. raddels everything in the ski locker that is being stored in it

3. must be a much bigger sub since it sits behind a very thick cushioned seat (unless you cut an opening somewhere for the sound to be released

4. will cost more since you need a bigger sub and amp

[truekaotik 458]

That 13.5 will fit under the drivers helm with little drivers leg room being removed...just hollow out everything in the way, the box will reinforce the area if done properly, A Buddy has a Elite V with a kicker L7 15" in the proper cubic foot box under drivers helm... I'm with David also on this, in ski locker will rattle the stuff stored in there more with significant clarity loss.... BUT if that's what you want to do then go for it!!! It's your boat bro...