kwc

UPDATE ON GAS DURING STORAGE! No sooner than finishing my post about how one should drain the tank if they have E10 fuel (10% Ethanol) per the manual, did an update about the myth's about ethanol gas get published in BoatU.S Magazine. www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp Per the very good article by Bob Adriance (some excepts): "The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things to increase the chances of phase separation: It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation. (As an alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of phase separation.) If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate." "Lew Gibbs added that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable." Per some of the experts referenced in the article: "Note, however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer — an antioxidant — whenever the boat will be idle for long periods." "Mercury Marine, the world's largest manufacturer of marine engines, recently held a webinar to debunk some of its own myths about ethanol. I attended with interest. The first myth was that there are fuel additives that can prevent all issues associated with ethanol-blended gasoline. For example, no fuel additive can prevent ethanol from acting like a solvent. The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar. "There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant." "Major multi-billion dollar companies with enormous resources have improved gasoline additives but there have been no recent breakthroughs involving 'magical technology.' Claims made by companies about 'space-age,' 'revolutionary,' or special proprietary technology should be looked at with a high degree of suspicion." "E10 Ethanol absolutely IS an acceptable fuel for everyday use." "E15 Ethanol absolutely IS NOT an acceptable fuel." "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'" "Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem. ------------ Anyhow, so much for what the manual said on gas storage! I joined BoatU.S. for some benefits at West Marine, so I'll put a plug in for them and what could be invaluable advice from the story from Bob Adraince. Now despite what the manual says, I'll need to go back and fill up the tank to 95%..... kwc

Thanks everyone for the info on this thread. it was very helpful as I had no ideal of to do the winterization, and the manual makes no easy sense. The video/pictures were especially helpful. Thought I'd put a summary of what I did for my 07 Elite V (with no heater) kept outside in Arizona, where there are a few below freezing nights in winter. Called dealer and cost was $150 + antifreeze to do a "limited" winterization (all they advised with the mild winter). It was also a 2 hr round trip so I didn't want the hassle. The limited winterization was to basically run antifreeze. a) Ballast tank: Only have a center tank and it's been modified with sac's, thus there is only a very small amount of water left. Given there's lots of room to freeze expand the limited water in tank, I did not put any antifreeze into the tank. (Most would remove the "strainer" water and blow out any remaining water in the lines). I can see putting some antifreeze in there in cold climates, but not sure how much would be needed due to dilution factor of the anifreeze). Gas tank: Per the manual, IF THERE'S ALCOHOL in the gas, then you SHOULD DRAIN as much gas as possible and put in stabilizer. As our gas is up to 10% ethanol, I tried draining what was left, but couldn't get my drain tube into tank, so figured less than 1/2 tank left and I could live with that. There seems to be a misperception about filling tank which if alcohol is present in your gas is inaccurrate (only holds if there is NO alcohol in your gas-just check the manual). Also, come spring start up, will be nice knowing fresh gas will be added. (Next year, last day on lake I'll run as low as possible on gas before removing from lake (and putting in the stabilzer just before loading boat onto the trailer). However, bringing a 5 gallon tank of gas since the gas gauges seem pretty inaccurate per other posts. c) I did not fog engine, as dealer wasn't going to be doing this for our milder winter. Need for this on the forum seems mixed, and may be climate based? d) Changing oils/filters: I personally don't understand why I would change out the oil/filters before storing the boat vs. doing that as a spring/summer start up. I think it makes more sense to have fresh oil put in on start up in the spring. (Although I suppose there's arguement to change it pre-storage). e) I PRE-drained the water remaining in the engine from the last trip out. There is a suprising large amount of water coming out of some of the drains, and some had some rust coming out at 1st. This is where I differed from the "Y" fake a lake hook up designs. Bottom line, I didn't want to dilute out the antifreeze that I was going put in the engine, so I WASN'T running water 1st, immediately followed by switching "Y valve" to the antifreeze. I put blue plugs back in after pre-draining remaining water. f) I removed the water line at the V-drive. This was harder than I thought, but did get it off after removing a couple of ties on some wires. Was worried the water line might get damaged and become big headache to replace. g) I used a 5 gallon bucket from Home Depot, a 3'8" long 1 1/4" inner diameter clear tube connected to the bucket (on bottom towards outside of bucket) and on the other side to the water line off the v-drive. Found these "expandable" type white plumbing things where the 1 1/4" diameter tube of the water line and my fake a lake line connected well with a ring clamp holding the lines (used 2 of them). Used some spare foam off an old lifevest to keep any antifreeze from leaking out the bottom (had some various adapters also to make the connection to the bucket work). Having a ball valve turned out to not be necessary as gravity pulls the antifreeze down to the engine water line. Filled the bucket up with about 6 gallons of antifreeze (someone holding it on edge of sun deck). h) Started up the engine, and the 1 1/4" hose sucks down the antifreeze fast. Also engine is not hot, so there's no overheating concern (as someone mentioned - also the larger 1 1/4" hose give proper volume into engine over a smaller garden hose). Stopped engine when antifreeze was used up. And then, per the manual, also then cranked, but did NOT start engine up a couple times to blow out any further fluid in block. i) Went back and re-opened the blue drain plugs. All showed nice pink clear undiluted antifreeze. Kept plugs out for 5 minutes and then put them back on to keep bugs from entering while stored. I think the logic is better to drain out one's antifreeze after, especially if you did water 1st followed by immediately switching to antifreeze (The volume of fluid and potential for diluting out your antifreeze is a concern for cold climates). After seeing the rust that came out in my pre-draining of water, I would strongly advise everyone flush there engine with antifreeze to remove any water to prevent corrosion, even if one lives in a warmer climate that wouldn't require winterization per se). j) Removed the 2 v-drive "water drain" plugs (with 10 mm wrench). Mine had never been removed by dealer winterizing before. There was no water that came out. I left these out for winter with small pieces of duct tape to keep bugs out. Not sure why they weren't removed before, but the Walter's manual says to remove them in the winter, and figured better safe than sorry. k) Pulled batteries into garage and charged for winter storage. l) Again, no heater so didn't have to worry about that item. Hope that's a helpful summary of the forum. I also had more piece of mind that things were done thoroughly with regards to removing any diluted antifreeze, etc that could be dismissed as a concern by some mechanics. And figuring gas to drive to dealer, saved $150..... Disclaimer: always follow your manual and have your dealer winterize your boat.... kwc