Ballast Upgrade

[h20king 794]

P.S Foiler thanks for the polite debate I have been gone for a while on vacation and only had time to post a couple pics to share the trip with the crew we made it back home last night at 3 am.Man I almost missed you guys LOL.......H

[LakeSurfer 10]

It wouldn't be to hard to wire it to run all 4 pumps but those dang impeller pumps can pull a lot of amps when you first turn them on. You just have to make sure you run large enough wire to them and use relays if your amp draw is more than the switch rating. I would have to look it up but I would guess that one stock style switch could just barely handle the amp draw of one pump.

 

Can anyone confirm whether or not I can run 2 of these pumps off of one rocker switch? If I cant, there is not really any point in me having 4 of them. I will just have to go with 2 and put in a manual valve like Trevor's set up.

[h20king 794]

sorry bro only one pump per switch ..............H

[Foiler 1]

Can anyone confirm whether or not I can run 2 of these pumps off of one rocker switch? If I cant, there is not really any point in me having 4 of them. I will just have to go with 2 and put in a manual valve like Trevor's set up.

 

No biggie, just needs a relay. You could run 100 of them off of one switch if you use relays.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Foiler

[LakeSurfer 10]

sorry bro only one pump per switch ..............H

 

Well that is no bueno. I guess that makes it a little simpler. I will just run two pumps with a manual valve that will allow me to run both pumps to one side. I guess on the bright side, I save myself $400.

[LakeSurfer 10]

No biggie, just needs a relay. You could run 100 of them off of one switch if you use relays.

 

we posted at the same time, what is a relay and how much are they?

[Foiler 1]

we posted at the same time, what is a relay and how much are they?

 

Relays are cheap and they make all different types to do different things. A basic relay is normally around 10 bucks. It is essentially just a switch itself but a heavier duty switch that has all the heavy duty wires on it and can be hidden anywhere. It has one little spade on it that when you apply 12 volts to it, it turns the relay on and completes the circuit. You could run a very tiny micro switch to turn the 12 volts onto the relay because the 12 volt turn on spade requires very little amperage. Your original ballast puppy should be on a relay, mine is. If you look behind the switch panel you should see it or see one for something else. It is just a little black box that is about 1 inch square.

 

I think they could have got by without using a relay on the ballast puppy but when you turn on the ballast puppy the factory system also is turning on the appropriate sprinkler valves so maybe they thought the load was a little high for a single switch.

[h20king 794]

no relays came with my boat but good thinking it should do the trick although I would not recommend running more than two pumps at the same time as they draw quite a bit.When I run my pumps I also have the engine ruining so the batts can keep up with the draw........H

[Foiler 1]

Ok after reading some of your post I have some new ideas for you to think about. However I haven't spent hours thinking about this like you probably have so it may not work perfectly for you and you could have reasons I haven't thought about.

 

First off do you really need that extra weight in the front? That sure isn't something that I want to do, talk about losing all your storage. At any rate they can be incorporated very easily with what I would do on the ballast pumps. I am trying to think the way I do all my mods and that is work as well as possible but allways be as cheap as possible and try and keep in mind the ease of install.

 

First off leave the factory system just like it is. If you have to have the front bags then just add 2 more sprinkler valves with lines running to the front bags and use a Mayfair to empty each one just like the factory uses. This would be so easy and cheap, I actually have most of the stuff laying in my garage to do that but I bet a lot of people do after removing the factory system.

 

Since you surf regular 99% of the time. Install 2 Johnsons off of a new 1 1/4 thru hull and run them both to the port bag. Remove the Mayfair if you have to but leave the original Ballast puppy line. Now you can fill it with 3 pumps and empty it with the 2 Johnson pumps. That thing would fill really fast with 3 pumps or when you are filling the center and front bag with the ballast puppy you just have the 2 Johnsons filling the custom sac. I would think the 9 gpm ballast puppy going through the sprinkler valves would probably fill the 500 lbs of the combined center tank and forward port bag in roughly the same amount of time that the 2 Johnsons will fill your custom sac. I haven't done the math but it should be close enough.

 

This would be one kick tush system that will fill a lot of bags in a short amount of time and you would only have to purchase 2 pumps. The only area it would suffer is when filling the starboard side however you could T in with a manual valve like you spoke of to speed it up. That way your system would be totally automated and could even fill the starboard side completely automated but if you wanted to speed it up then you would have to turn your manual valves. If you never surf that side though then I wouldn't even bother with the manual valves. Wouldn't it just fill up at the same rate your boat does now? You have been getting by with that on the side you surf regularly so it should be easy to go back to that level 1% of the time.

[Trevor Gleadhill 0]

I just hope Lakesurfer wants to tackle this himself (with my help). Sounds like a fun project to design and build.

 

T

[Trevor Gleadhill 0]

This from a reputable EE aka my father who helped me wire my boat.

 

RE: wiring two pumps to one switch.

 

So the simple answer to your question comes down to how much load the switch will have to carry and interrupt. You will need to know the current rating of the motor, double it if you are going to use two motors and ensure it does not exceed the current rating of the switch.

 

A more involved answer. There are two kinds of load to be concerned about....running load and start up load. Running load is when the motor is running normally and is usually the number shown on the motor housing nameplate. The switch must be able to carry this load continuously without heating up and interrupt this load without arcing to the point that the switch contacts fuse together.

 

The second load is the start up load which is always higher than the running load (sometimes by a factor of 5 or 10). The duration os the start up load varies considerably with motor design etc. But it could last as long as multiple seconds. If I remember the sound of the motors in your boat I would think the start up load is quite short. These momentary loads (@ start up) usually affect the more long term reliability of the switch. The greater the start-up load, the more arcing there is across the switch contacts as they close. The more arcing over time, the shorter the life of the switch and the more likelihood the switch will 'short' as in it will no longer turn off the motor.

 

What to do? Two options I would think. Simple solution is to use a switch with a higher current rating. Not sure you could find one with the same form factor tho. The 2nd option is the use a high current relay to switch the load (motors) and control the relay from the switch. In this scenario the switch is only carrying the low relay coil current required to energize the relay. The relay contacts carry the heavy loads required of the motors. Its not hard to do this and can be installed relatively easily and out of site.

 

It is over my head but some here might benefit.

 

T

[Foiler 1]

The above system would also be very, very simple to wire. There are a few different ways you could do it but the first thing that comes to mind for me would be to keep your 3 existing switches (remember you are essentually leaving the stock ballast system alone) Add 2 more switches for the front bags, they would be wired exactly like your existing switches. In the on position it would turn on the Ballast puppy and that bags sprinkler valve. In the off position it turns on that bags Mayfair. Very, very simple wiring. You fill all 5 bags exactly the same way you do now with 5 seperate switches and could actually fill all 5 with only the ballast puppy but dang that would be so slow.

 

The Johnsons would have their own switch and it would be a double pole double throw switch just like your Lenco has and it would actually change the direction of the pumps so In would pump the water in and Out would change the polarity of the wiring which actually changes the direction of the pump. If your bag has enough fittings in it then you could leave the Mayfair in there to. That would have to be one of the fastest systems to ever pump out 2000 lbs of water.

 

One thing I do like about the reversing pumps is how they can pump in and out and that is the only reason I have left my ballast puppy in there. So much nicer for filling additional sacs. You could use a T valve that ran an auxiliary line off of one of your Johnsons that could be used for an extra bag, like a 750 on the port seat. This would obviously take away from filling your Custom port sac but you would still have the Ballast puppy and the other Johnson to pump going into it. Overall I can't really think of any flaws in this system other than the sprinkler valves. I personally haven't ever had any problems with the sprinkler valves and you would only have sprinkler valves on non important bags anyways so you would never have to worry about being stuck on the water and not being able to surf.

[Foiler 1]

So the simple answer to your question comes down to how much load the switch will have to carry and interrupt. You will need to know the current rating of the motor, double it if you are going to use two motors and ensure it does not exceed the current rating of the switch.

 

Those impellers are fairly stiff and can even stick slightly if it hasn't been used in a while, not to mention that if the last time that you used it was for pumping OUT then when your hit the switch to pump IN, it actually has to flip the veins of the impeller around. Those pumps can easily have a 20 amp spike when you first hit the switch and if I remember correctly those are 20 amp switches. They possibly pull 10 or less amps when running though.

[LakeSurfer 10]

thanks for all of the replies.

 

So here is what I am thinking: 2 Johnson pumps on each sac fed by a new 1.25" thru-hull connected to two new rocker switches. I am going to leave all of the current system in place (including wiring) and use these to fill center and bow sacs. I can get two new rocker covers from Fineline that say bow and pop those onto the current port/stbd rocker switches that are already wired. Use the current port/stbd rocker switch covers on new switches that I will wire to the new Johnson pumps. I figure this will fill/empty in about 6 min.

 

I also have 3 Mayfair 1000 pumps sitting in my garage, so I could take out the ballast puppy and 3 sprinkler valves and replace those with a dedicated pump to the center tank/2 ballast sacs.

[h20king 794]

This from a reputable EE aka my father who helped me wire my boat.

T great write up you have to love all the info the older guys have priceless...........H

[Foiler 1]

I also have 3 Mayfair 1000 pumps sitting in my garage, so I could take out the ballast puppy and 3 sprinkler valves and replace those with a dedicated pump to the center tank/2 ballast sacs.

 

You could do that but it would be a total pain in the rear and really wouldn't gain you much. Your front side sac and center tank would fill quicker but you will likely still be waiting on the custom sac to fill and it is going to get really, really complicated trying to make those Mayfairs fill those front bags especailly since you would have 2 thru-hulls all ready. That wouldn't leave much room to put the Mayfairs which have to be mounted below water level which means down near the thru-hull. That is the route I went with 3 aerator pumps and believe me it is much easier in theory than it is in reality when you try and mount them below the waterline.

[LakeSurfer 10]

You could do that but it would be a total pain in the rear and really wouldn't gain you much. Your front side sac and center tank would fill quicker but you will likely still be waiting on the custom sac to fill and it is going to get really, really complicated trying to make those Mayfairs fill those front bags especailly since you would have 2 thru-hulls all ready. That wouldn't leave much room to put the Mayfairs which have to be mounted below water level which means down near the thru-hull. That is the route I went with 3 aerator pumps and believe me it is much easier in theory than it is in reality when you try and mount them below the waterline.

 

That is what I was thinking. So the 3 mayfair pumps will be a no go.

[LakeSurfer 10]

I just hope Lakesurfer wants to tackle this himself (with my help). Sounds like a fun project to design and build.

 

T

 

I would like a diagram with a parts list by the end of the day

[duffymahoney 10]

You could always buy the sacs and just manual fill them and see if you like the bow weight? Do this before you spend all the time and effort wiring them. I personally like it, but my boat is pretty well sunk:)

[LakeSurfer 10]

You could always buy the sacs and just manual fill them and see if you like the bow weight? Do this before you spend all the time and effort wiring them. I personally like it, but my boat is pretty well sunk:)

 

I like bow weight. The reason I want to plumb bow sacs is because I am tires of filling a sac with tsunami pump