Newbie looking for boat advice....

[Dustycoyote 0]

Hello all,

Truly a newbie here. I've maybe been on a power boat a dozen times in my life but my wife just told me that she'd like to get a boat. Please forgive my lack of understanding of boats in general as I ask my questions here. Also, I'm about to write a novel here. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read the whole book. Very much appreciate any help you all have for me.

I've gotten some info from a few of my friends who are boat owners. They each have different thoughts but there are a couple things that have been consistent in what they've told me. I wanted to lay out my situation and thoughts here and get some advice and guidance from the community.

First,  my buddies have all told me to get a surf boat. They've each independently said that it's the best family experience and will be what my kids will most likely enjoy the most. Having said that, they have also said that I also want a boat that we could ski or wakeboard behind as well. My personal expectation is that we'll primarily surf and pull a tube. I dont know for sure but that is what I'm targeting for the boat. 

I was also told that a better boat that creates a better wake is not just for expert level surfers but that it is maybe even more important for beginners as it is much easier to get up and then to learn on. 

So I started checking out surf boats... I was shocked (like, go in the other room and check my drawers shocked), at the cost of a good surfing boat!! I'd hoped to get into this at about 30K but wanted to make sure that I was basing my price point on reality rather than just a number I came up with.

3 of my friends own relatively new boats but one of them owns a 2002 so I called him asking how to do this on a budget. He told me that it's doable but there are some big compromises to make it work. He said that his next boat will be different and, because his family is so in to it, he will sacrifice to spend some money for an upgrade in the next few years.

I asked each of them then, keeping in mind that I'm not made of money and would like to do this in the most intelligently conservative way possible, what year I should set as maybe the oldest boat I should consider. They each gave me a different, but similar year ranging from 2011 to 2015. All of them consistently said that it can be done with earlier boats but that the current surf technology was developed in one of those years. They also said that buying a good boat from those years would really get me the technology that is being built into today's boats. It keeps getting refined but hasn't really changed since then. 

We have 3 kids 15 and under. We live in Utah so it will be all lake and reservoir boating. May include both big and small lakes. 

 

So, after that big intro.... I'll ask some specific questions and lay out my considerations but I also ask for any general info that anyone may think I need or would be helpful. All of my questions ultimately roll up to one single question, "What boats should I look at to be as budget minded as possible (60k or less for sure) but get the a good experience for my family, and in a boat that I'm not going to want to upgrade from in the next several years"....

 

My thoughts and questions...

1. I had originally been interested in an Avalanche based on online comments that it makes a great wake, but I dont want to have to add weights and ballast manually and would prefer not to have to add any wake creating devices by hand to the boat to get a good wake. I'd like the surfability to be as automated as possible. When I go boating I want to boat, not manage the boat... I assume that this is why my friends told me to go with a newer boat from a minimum years I listed. (Any consensus on an oldest year to consider?)

2. I dont necessarily want high luxury but I do value good build quality and reliability. I dont want popping seams, stitching coming apart, or electronics issues being a big part of my boating experience. I dont know whether to look at the main brands or one of the value focused brands. Specific to centurian I wonder about the difference between Centurian and Supreme. Is the build quality and surf system just as good but the boat just isnt as nice and luxurious? Or is there a better build quality and usability in the upper lines? For example, would I be better served buying a 2012 Enzo or a 2015 Supreme? I know this is a Centurion forum, but similarly, should I consider Moomba, Axxis, even Heyday instead of older Mailbu/Centurian/MC/Nautica/Tige?

3. In reading about wake quality I've developed an personal perception of wake quality in the different brands. I want to validate correct my view. Please correct or comment on the following;

Super Nautique - I've been told this is the gold standard. The wake is huge and long but it is also steep so it really is only the gold standard for expert surfers. For other surfers the gold standard is maybe Tige or Centurion???

Centurian/Supreme - hull shape makes a great wake with less ballast than other brands. Wake great quality and is easy to surf. Is there a difference in wake quality between the two?

Malibu/Axis - seem like, at least in the older years, they seemed to be more focused on wakeboarding. Are they as good as the centurion lines now for surfing? Value?

Tige - Have read that, similar to Centurion, they have a deep hull design that makes a great wake. Have heard that it is a much better wake on the goofy side than the Centurion. 

Mastercraft - thoughts? Is the X series as good for surfing as others mentioned here?  Is the NXT a good option?

Moomba - seems like a great value and I've read great things about the surfability. Any other concerns or considerations?

Heyday - Great value. Seems to be a newer and not mainstream brand but seems to rate well on wake. The places I've read say that the wake isnt as good as the top boats though.. anyone have any experience? Is the layout od the boat a good place for the family to hang out? One of my friends almost bought one of these. Resale value?

Yamaha - my wife likes these but they dont really seem to be made for surfing. Correct? I haven't really been considering these for that reason.

Are all of these boats usable for wakeboarding and skiing or do some compromise those aspects more than others?  

Lastly, 

Any advice on buying? Best time to buy? How to get the best deal?

As I look at listings for boats, it seems that the cost to buy one of the value brands vs the main brands seems to converge on the 2012 to 2015 years.it seems like there may only be a 10 grand and 1 model year  difference to buy a centurian vs a supreme for example. Am I seeing that wrong? Thoughts on this?

Again,

Thanks again for any help.

 

Happy boating all!

[Troy 234]

Welcome! bunch of guys with a boat load of knowledge on this forum. 

My $.02. If you don't mind listing the boat (more weight on the surf side of the boat, and the boat lists in the water) go with an Avy, Enzo 230/233/240/244, or FX/FS. These boats shine with the least amount of ballast to surf wave potential. I run about 2k in my Avy and my goofy wave as great, but that is all we surf and I list it and surf it. You can make the ballast system completely automated, just have to install pumps, switches and bags, fairly easy.  If you don't feel comfortable in Listing the boat, then you need to look at the Ri/Fi boats. But they most likely be out of your 60K budget. 

Only other brand I have surfed was a newer Mastercraft NXT22, I think. The wave was acceptable but he had 900 lbs of lead plus all ballast full and we went through a lot of fuel for a short surf session. 

Tige does not have a Deep V like the Centurion/Supreme's. 

And my opinion, Centurion is the Gold Standard for surf wave. 

Research, research and research. Everyone will have an opinion. Go out and ride with other people and form your own opinion. For me the fuel usage would be a big deciding factor. I don't have expendable income and everything is planned out. If the boat used a bunch more fuel that it currently does, I wouldn't get to use it near as much. 

[rhino89523 34]

My first boat was a day cruiser inboard/outboard and it was a great boat. We had it for like 10 years and used it a lot. I learned a lot about boating with that boat and learned that we liked boating...so I upgraded a few years ago to an AVY.

You said one thing in there that concerned a little, " When I go boating I want to boat, not manage the boat" I think I get what you were trying to say but as the captain of the ship you will have to manage everything about the boat from hitching it to your truck, to the launch and all the time on the lake. To do it correct takes quite a bit of management to insure your whole crew and everyone else's returns home safely. There is a lot going on to keep track of and if I understood you correct the set up of the boat is not one of the things you want to deal with....Fair enough.

That said you are looking for a newer boat and I think the advice you have been given by your friends is probably correct on the years to look for. I think Centurions throw out the best looking waves I have seen and my biased opinion would have you looking for one of those.

There is a lot of electronics going on in the new boats and boats require yearly maintenance and service so keep a nice little side fund for that.

As an older boat owner I will check out of this thread and I am sure you will get some great advise on Models within the range you are looking for.

As far as time to buy...you are in the prime zone. After Labor Day the price drops as low as it's going to get and you can talk an owner down as low as he/she is going to go. For most climates it's time to start thinking about laying the boat up for winter. This means winterizing and either storage or a wrap. For somebody selling it's the last ditch to try to off the boat before having to pay or do the service and having to pay for storage or have the thing clogging up your shop for 6 months. I'd get ready to pull the trigger now and go for it....you have the hammer right now. If you wait a couple months the for sale boats disappear and everyone waits till spring. Spring until 4th of July is the high season for the boat seller.  

[Nick213 583]

@Dustycoyote  Based on everything I’ve read from your initial post I did a quick search for centurions on onlyinboards and surprisingly found this. There may be some ballast bags that can be swapped out or added if needed. Since you don’t want to use a wake shaper you’ll need to list the boat. That in my mind puts the AVY out because they they lean a lot so that brings you into an Enzo because they can be listed with a great surf wave but don’t lean as much as the avy and have a little more freeboard. Here is the Enzo I found in Utah in my search.

 

https://www.onlyinboards.com/2009-Centurion-Enzo-SV240-Low-Hours-Excellent-Condition-Loaded-for-sale-Springville-Utah-99148.aspx

[dadof5 0]

I have a 2012 Avalanche that I bought specifically because I can put together a great wave on both sides (I ride goofy and most of my family rides regular).

You will need to increase the size of the ballasts at the budget you are looking for, and add a surf gate.  Don't be too concerned about "managing" the boat. Your kids can deal with the surf gate when it is required to be changed, if at all.  You put it on, set it and forget until someone surfs the other side.  If you don't want this much "work" then you likely will need to get out your check book or go see your lender for a healthy boat loan.  Most boats, that are fully automated, and worth surfing behind, will be closer to the 80K range and upwards.  My buddies 2014 Wakesetter is shy on ballast weight. The wave is nothing compared to my boat.  My other buddies 2004 Mastercraft has a short wave. Not all that great either.  I'm told the X25 is the way to go if you are looking to go with Mastercraft. Either way, you will likely need to make adjustments to most boats that are built prior to 2015.  Most Surf Tabs that were available prior to 2015 were not all that great.  The newer ones have better technology. 

If you want to stick to your budget, consider the avalanche, and consider your willingness to "manage the boat".  Boating in itself is work.  There is always something that needs to be managed.

[rhino89523 34]

We Run a homemade Ghetto gate on my AVY now while I stock parts. This winter we will be automated...not sure what I will run for a controller yet but there are some nice ones available but knowing me it will be a switch with some relays. The wave off my Avy seems to be better than almost everything I have seen and it is confirmed by everyone who rides behind my boat that has ridden others. I paid 20G for a walkthrough Avy and have a bag in the hallway. I've looked at it and thought about removing the walkway but I kind of like it. 

[Dustycoyote 0]

thanks to everyone for all of the answers and info.

In response and addition to all of the answers...

I wouldn't mind getting an older boat to help save money but only if I could have the surf automation/management systems added to it for a reasonable cost so that I don't have to "manage" our boating experience rather than enjoy it. I don't think I need touchscreen, etc. etc. and other premium tech that seems to set the premium lines apart from the value lines (again, tell me if I'm wrong), as long as I can create a good wake without turning the boat on its side too much and that I can change the wake back and forth and "tune" from the driver seat. (I know that "tuning" is a subjective term...)  

When I say manage it I mean that I don't want to have to stop the boat and manually move ballast around then move equipment from one side of the boat to the other in between each surfers turn in the water because one surfer is goofy and the next may not be. Or because someone was surfing and then someone else wants to wakeboard. Maybe I'm wrong (again, I'm totally new to this, so correct me as needed) but that seems like a big pain and like it would affect overall enjoyment and experience for everyone. I definitely don't want ballast laying around in the boat. 

If I can get an older boat (I continually see people refer to the Avalanche as the best surf boat prior to like 2012...) and add those systems to it, but that saves me 15 grand then I'm all in! In all of my reading though, it seems like there are always caveats to going that route. If could do this for less than 60K then I would really like to, but if everyone were to tell me that the family is just going to have a way better experience if I spend the extra money, then it's worth it to me. I'm blessed that I can even consider spending that money if warranted ( I know not everyone can...). 

Speaking of the older boats, it seems like almost all boats I read about before 2016 or so (that aren't ridiculously expensive) don't do goofy side wakes well. Or at least without a lot of effort and "management" during the surf day. Are there any that do both sides well in my price range/age that I don't need to list extremely and that can be done through an automated ballast and surf system?? ( I don't mind adding an after market ballast or surf system if it saves me a bunch of money and fits in the boat without impeding on other stuff...) 

 Where should I look for good deals on boats? I've been looking on KSL and on OnlyIboards but am a little handicapped because I don't know boats. I have no idea what a good deal is or not when I'm looking through them. I am especially handicapped because I don't know what to look for on the boat listing (Lots of boats seem to come with surf and gate systems as options but they are really needed for the boat to do well in surfing, etc..)

 

My research has kind of started leading me to the idea that I really need to be looking at the Moomba and other value brands such as MB/Supreme/Axis, etc. etc. 
The problem I keep running into is that I'll find a model that seems promising (Like say a Supreme S238 or S226) and that seems to be in a 50K price range for 2015 to 2017, so it would have newer tech I would assume, and then as I start to look farther into forum talk on that model I find that it has a great wakeboard wake but marginal surf, or doesn't do a good wake for the goofy side, or some other bummer compromise. I'll find lots of other people claiming they get 35 foot surf wakes on both sides off of that same boat, but then after reading farther into it I find that they only got that great wake because they added 4 tons of lead and their wife's dead grandmothers corpse to the back, rare shark fins from the orient strapped to the sides, and a vudu priest and 70 pounds of gold hidden under the bow seats.... 

From that list I gave in my original post. I'm listing here a bunch of boats that have seemed interesting in one way or another in case anyone has any input or insight on some of them... 

An Avalanche - Good reviews and can get on a budget but would need to understand what I would need to add to it after the fact. Also don't understand what it's not going to be good at really ecept that people have said that the sides aren't htat tall so it is not great to list. Would I be giving up a lot compared to newer boats, even after adding surf tech to it? would it ever surf as well as others that I could consider??

Heyday WT2 or WT Surf - this one is intriguing. Nervous about it being an off-brand. It's ugly. Would it limit me in being able to wakeboard or Ski??

MB WB 23 with LS3 - this one seems like it may be hard to find but is well reviewed??

Supreme S226 or S238 - these seem like good values but have seen some reviews that say they throw marginal surfing wakes?? especially on Goofy? I have two friends with S226 boats who say they love them. (i haven't been out with either but am scheduling a weekend with one to try it out.)

Tiges seem to get some good reviews but seem pricey. I haven't really seen much on the R series boats though. Mostly I've run across people talking about the Z1, Z3, with the VX hull.

Centurion SV230/233/240/244 - all seem good but have seen various comments stating that they don't surf well on goofy. The ones that don't end in a "0" seem to be out of my price range? I understand that something called CATS was introduced in 2014 and that seemed to improve the surfability for these boats. I assume I'd need to look for that on any Centurion boat I considered? Is CATS also on Supremes??

Moomba Mojo 2.5 - seems good but is the surf system manual? are all manual systems a pain? Seems like, at lest in the 2015 time frame, people saw Supreme as a better surf boat and Moomba as a better wakeboarder??

Mastercraft X30 or X46 - seem to be good but because of price I would be pushed into an old enough year that it wouldn't be good for surfing?

Axis A24 - lots of good and bad written about Axis for surfing. not sure what to think...

A couple of additional points that I read that seem logical. Anyone object to these?

Seems I should look for a bigger boat if I have room for it. Just like the deep hull, it seems that a bigger boat naturally displaces more water and creates a deeper wake?? ... I have room for it but bigger boats seem to cost bigger dollars...

I live at high altitude so I've been told that I need a motor with a lot of power, preferably something with 400HP or more. I assume that torque really matters more than HP but that they largely run hand in hand for boat motors??? 

[Nick213 583]

Out of your list I have owned:

An 2008 AVY and my current boat 2013 SV244.

I had a great regular wave on the AVY listed (pretty scetchy for a newb) and a pretty good listed goofy wave (again scetchy for a newb) after I added custom bags and an adjustable A-plate tab.

My SV244 puts out such a good wave on both sides I can’t justify getting a new boat at this time. I have added 800#’s of lead that I don’t move in my 244 other then that it’s all factory ballast.

 

The SV 240 I posted seemed like a good starter boat given your criteria posted (in my search in Utah for centurions) and the dealer is known to have a good if not great reputation. 

 

With your interest in older models and surfing  being your main priority for sports your gonna need to do some modifications with any brand to get a desirable wave.

 

[Dustycoyote 0]

What is the difference between an SV240 and your SV244?

[mikeyr114 1]

Came across this yesterday... looks to be a pretty good deal!! 

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/366529830681084/

[Nick213 583]

1 hour ago, Dustycoyote said:

What is the difference between an SV240 and your SV244?

The 244 is 4” longer and the windshield is forward so the 240 has a bigger bow then the 244.

[Dustycoyote 0]

I'm willing to look a little farther abroad if it gets me a better deal. I've heard that Utahs boat market is somewhat inflated. I dont kkow if that's really true but I think I've seen a couple deals on IBO that seems to be better than that SV270. 

 

The Avalanche seems really interesting but I'm concerned about your note about having to list it. I started reading about that and pretty universally it seems that people say that the free board is low so besides having ll be list the boat, it seems like one needs to be kind of good at listing the boat...

 

I'm thinking more now that I probably want to go with a few years newer boat that is hopefully designed for, or at least capable of, using equal ballast in the back and utilizing a surf management system to create a good wave on either side.

 

Could a 2014 SV 24x or SV23x boat do that? Would a year or two newer supreme s226 or 238? A Moomba or MB?

[InfinitySurf 302]

You can add aftermarket surf tabs to pretty much any boat...actually if you look at that post for the 09 SV240, that dealer states that the boat is available with "InfinityWave surf system". This system costs about $2200. Another option is GSA surf tabs which cost double that.

I have a 2014 SV244 and I installed the InfinityWave surf tabs this Spring, excellent system and this boat is kickass in every dept. On the goofy wave, all you need is an "a-plate", many of the newer Avy/SV230/240/233/244 boats have them and if not, you can have one made for a couple hundred. The goofy wave is actually a bit larger on my boat due to the direction of prop spin.

The point is that you do not have to get a new boat to have automated surf system or a great boat, however you WILL have to have the right amount of ballast no matter what brand you get. You will not get a great wave without the right amount of ballast. Its all about having the bags and reversible pumps to make it easy. Suck gates are easy to put on/off, I did that on my boat before adding the InfinityWave surf tabs. (Pic below showing the surf tabs on my boat).

Also a few pics of me on the surf wave from our surf session this Weds night

[asagers 3]

Lol, I bought the SV240 in the BoardCo listing posted above.  The first things I’ve modified are:

1) upgraded the factory hard tanks to 1100s in the rear lockers and 650’s under the benches. I bypassed the sprinkler valves and have the fill lines coming straight from the jabsco pumps into a manual y-valve, then from there one line going direct to the rear bag and another line going direct to the bag under the benches.

2) I had the infinity wave surf tabs installed, and now am working with them to have an actuated double winged center plate fabricated (similar to the current Supreme boats) since it has a small fixed plate currently. The regular wave is really nice and clean, but the goofy wave still gets washed out not having a winged center plate. 

3) My winter project will be to remove the sideswipe exhaust and replace with the FAE conversion kit. The 8.1L engine is very loud at speeds over about 16mph through the sideswipe. 

All in all, we’re very happy with the boat. We got a sub $50k boat, put about $3k of upgrades into it, and have a fantastic surf and wakeboard boat. 

[asagers 3]

Surfing with my daughter

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by asagers

[asagers 3]

[Packrat 13]

Going the FAE route is is the way to go. On my previous boat 2008 SV240 I changed the sideswipe to rear exhaust with flappers and then went with the FAE exhaust. Had to go fiberglass work and buy new exhaust pipes so it cost a lot more than the new FAE.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Packrat
Edit

[Packrat 13]

I wonder if adding check valves would help the the filling?

[Dillyrev 0]

Since I'm just completing my first year with a older surf boat, my first one I will give you other side of coin. First of all anything newer is expensive period, especially if your raising a family. Filling bags manually and all the crap that goes with it is a pain in the tush if you like to surf then just cruise up and down river like I do double pain in the tush. the ride is horrible with any lake chop and something that can be a issue on rougher lake. I boat on a river in AZ and a  normal Saturday I can use boat in morning and that's about it, too rough rest of day, sure I'm sure there are 24 foot boats that ride ok, but just way to much coin. I have had ever boat under the sun besides a surf boat, lots of great options be sure you kids are really going to want to surf and go from there.

[Bigcatpt 408]

I wonder if Dustycoyote found himself a surfboat?  His last post was end of August.  Maybe he went with another brand other than Centurion and hasn't been back......