First Gen Ramfill

[Lak3surf3r 714]

I have been watching this thread for awhile and this must be incredibly frustrating for the owners experiencing problems with their RAMFill. Heck, I get frustrated just reading about it. I also own a 2015 FS44 with about 40 hours on it so far (Valterra valves - no problems yet). It is pretty ridiculous that no one at the dealer seems to know what is wrong with nasmith's boat. The electrical/mechanical valve system that controls the RAMFill ballast is pretty simple. Here is one way that the dealer could go about debugging this. This analysis is only for the Valterra valves. The earlier valves just sound too wimpy to be reliable IMHO. For the Valterra vales, the problem is likely one of the following:

 

1. The motor controlling the valve cannot produce enough torque to reliably move the valve-gate. First thing that the dealer should do is verify that the currently-installed valve works when provided with sufficient voltage/current by connecting the valve directly to a separate power supply and verifying the valve behavior by cycling the power several times. If the valve works under this configuration, go to step 2, else replace the valve and go to step 1 to verify the installation of the new valve.

 

2. Excessive voltage drop through the wiring harness. Connect the power supply up to the wiring harness and verify that the valve will open and close reliably via the harness. Also, measure the amount of voltage drop that occurs over the wiring harness when the valve is actuated. If the voltage drop is too high for reliable operation, use larger gauge wiring in the harness and/or check the connectors to make sure that they are not dropping the voltage due to bad connections. Go to step 3.

 

3. Insufficient voltage/current from the touch-screen interface. Attempt to cycle the valves using the boat electronics (the touch-screen interface). Measure the voltage drop and current when cycling the valves. Make sure that the voltage and current that are provided to the valve are sufficient for reliable operation. If the voltage is insufficient, you may need to replace the related electronics. Or, if the Centurion engineers didn't spec. this properly, this is a bigger problem.

 

4. Battery voltage is insufficient. Make sure that the voltage provided by the battery is sufficient to cycle the valves. Charge battery if necessary. For what its worth, my batteries are always on a high-end charger when the boat is not in the water. This alone has eliminated funky electrical problems on my other boats. It seems like these systems are only designed to work with the voltage that is generated from a completely charged battery. With the large stereo systems on current boats, I doubt that the batteries are completely charged during a typical day if the stereo is thumping all day long as it typically is on my boat. You may have a 100-amp alternator on your boat, but that is only enough to power a 1200-watt stereo (and nothing else). If you are running your stereo at full volume all or most of the day, your batteries will probably not get fully charged.

 

5. It is also possible that the valves, as designed and constructed, are not well-matched to the application and will not operate reliably. Although this is possible, I also know people who are not having any problems with these valves so I am not sure that this is the case. It is also possible that some of the installed valves came from a bad batch of valves. This seems unlikely because nasmith has had a whole box of valves thrown at his boat with no success. Perhaps the valves don't like getting wet? I don't know.

 

The core problem is that the mechanics at the dealer are not really trouble-shooting things to discover the root problem. From the sounds of it, they just keep replacing valves, etc., and hope that the problem will go away. It is clear that they haven't found nasmith's problem yet. Of course, it is possible/likely that the list of debugging steps above is missing something. That is always the case. Still, it would make sense to go through those steps so that you could exclude those issues and eventually focus on the source of the problem.

 

As the electronics in boats become more complex, we are likely to experience more of these kinds of problems. The skills and expertise of boat mechanics are all over the map. In my experience many boat mechanics don't really understand electronics that well. Moreover, the seasonal nature of the work makes it impossible to keep talent because you can't keep good mechanics employed year-round. And, just swapping parts out and hoping for the best is not a recipe for success, especially with these mechanical/electronic systems. Centurion needs to train people so that they can debug and repair their boats. The poor mechanics usually have to figure this stuff out on their own and they are incredibly busy during the summer months.

 

For what it is worth, I generally do most of my own boat maintenance and repair even though I really like the boat mechanic at my dealer. I often speak to him to compare notes and to get the benefit of his experience but usually end up doing the work myself.

 

I teach computer engineering at the local university and just generally like tinkering with electro-mechanical stuff. I also teach my students a lot about debug, hence my interest in this kind of thing. Nasmith, if I lived in AZ, I would try to help you fix your boat!

 

I'm really sorry that something that should be relatively simple is causing so much trouble.

Great write up, and you literally took the words out of my mouth to the dealer and to pass on to Centurion. I myself am a computer builder, a CCNA network engineer, a linux programmer, a metal fabricator, and a mechanic as well so I know where you are coming from and agree with everything you said. I would do the repairs myself if I didnt spend 100k on a boat (more than once per year and 3 from them last year) that should have been engineered properly and secondly for it to be troubleshot properly by a fineline tech/engineer as to why its failing repeatedly. These valves do not fit this application at all and fineline surely would have saved money and hassle in the bigger picture by using a 3" ball valve even being priced at roughly 10 times the price of the valterra valves. I found several faults on broken valves that came out of my boat and most of the time it is an O ring failure (even properly lubed) that either seizes the gate shut or will not allow it to open. The handle and "thumb ring" have also broken. Im pretty sure that the 18 gauge wiring going to it is insufficient for the gates motor voltage draw and the motor is probably underpowered to perform its duties with head pressure and the force of the water on the fill gates. You are 100% correct on the dealer mechanics mostly being old school and having no idea about the newer electrical systems. Fortunately for me this boat will not be with me much longer (maybe a week or 2 tops) and every part on the system is being replaced this week so I hope it solves the problems for the future owner and I hope you never have problems with yours!

[Babylon 23]

I think that Centurion probably cares. They just don't know what to do about it though I think they could do a better job. The problem is nearly unsolvable because:

 

1. The seasonable nature of the boat business means that you can't employ good people year-round. Worse, there aren't enough good techs to go around during the summer months. They are all way too busy during the summer and have little to do during the winter.

 

2. The debugging steps that I gave can only be applied by someone with the requisite skills and experience. People with that level of skill want to work year-around and can probably command more money than the dealer can provide. I know that I am pretty expensive :-) Of course, I work on my own boat for fun and often kibbutz with the local mechanic and let him know what kinds of problems I find. For example, nasmith mentioned that the tech was spraying dielectric grease on the contacts. If the mechanic first verified that the contacts were creating a resistive path that caused too much of a voltage drop, the grease may help. However, just applying the grease without verifying the problem is a waste of time IMHO, especially for the poor guy who is wearing a track between his house and the dealer.

 

3. Boats are getting more and more complex. I hear about Malibu's surf-band and other similar remote-control systems and cringe. I presume that they are controlled via bluetooth and bluetooth is just not that reliable, especially in the presence of the kinds of electromagnetic noise generated by an internal-combustion engine. Bluetooth operates in an unlicensed part of the spectrum and there are lots of things that operate there and will likely interfere with the signal (construction equipment, radios, etc.) Worse, it will be difficult or impossible to reproduce problems for the mechanic. Mechanics will have a heck of time separating operator error from genuine problems. Of course, we will only see wonderful videos of the skilled riders pulling tricks while they are madly squeezing their surf-band or touching their pebble watch! Bleah.

 

I don't see any good solutions here. Probably the best approach is to help each other as much as we can via forums like this. This is a pretty helpful and friendly group. I'm more than happy to help out where I can.

[Babylon 23]

Nasmith, it was quite helpful to hear about the O-ring failures. I presume that I will eventually have problems with the valves as I have fewer hours than you do. I was a machinist and a mechanic in a former life (I put myself through school that way) so it sounds like our experiences are similar. Do you have any ideas on what is causing the O-ring failure? I presume that we are talking about the Valterra valves. I do see your point about excessive head pressure as these valves were designed for RV sewer installations with almost no head pressure.

[Lak3surf3r 714]

I think that Centurion probably cares. They just don't know what to do about it though I think they could do a better job. The problem is nearly unsolvable because:

 

1. The seasonable nature of the boat business means that you can't employ good people year-round. Worse, there aren't enough good techs to go around during the summer months. They are all way too busy during the summer and have little to do during the winter.

 

2. The debugging steps that I gave can only be applied by someone with the requisite skills and experience. People with that level of skill want to work year-around and can probably command more money than the dealer can provide. I know that I am pretty expensive :-) Of course, I work on my own boat for fun and often kibbutz with the local mechanic and let him know what kinds of problems I find. For example, nasmith mentioned that the tech was spraying dielectric grease on the contacts. If the mechanic first verified that the contacts were creating a resistive path that caused too much of a voltage drop, the grease may help. However, just applying the grease without verifying the problem is a waste of time IMHO, especially for the poor guy who is wearing a track between his house and the dealer.

 

3. Boats are getting more and more complex. I hear about Malibu's surf-band and other similar remote-control systems and cringe. I presume that they are controlled via bluetooth and bluetooth is just not that reliable, especially in the presence of the kinds of electromagnetic noise generated by an internal-combustion engine. Bluetooth operates in an unlicensed part of the spectrum and there are lots of things that operate there and will likely interfere with the signal (construction equipment, radios, etc.) Worse, it will be difficult or impossible to reproduce problems for the mechanic. Mechanics will have a heck of time separating operator error from genuine problems. Of course, we will only see wonderful videos of the skilled riders pulling tricks while they are madly squeezing their surf-band or touching their pebble watch! Bleah.

 

I don't see any good solutions here. Probably the best approach is to help each other as much as we can via forums like this. This is a pretty helpful and friendly group. I'm more than happy to help out where I can.

Start subcontracting for fineline lol. Id gladly drop my boat off to you over the dealer at this point as im to lazy to do the work myself nor do I even care about this boat anymore. I have new boat disease on my mind

[Babylon 23]

Also, I agree with you about the wiring harness. If the wiring harness is 18-guage and is about 15-feet long, it is probably inadequate, especially if the battery voltage drops much.

[Babylon 23]

Start subcontracting for fineline lol. Id gladly drop my boat off to you over the dealer at this point as im to lazy to do the work myself nor do I even care about this boat anymore. I have new boat disease on my mind

I'm sure that Fineline would not be able to afford me.

[Lak3surf3r 714]

Nasmith, it was quite helpful to hear about the O-ring failures. I presume that I will eventually have problems with the valves as I have fewer hours than you do. I was a machinist and a mechanic in a former life (I put myself through school that way) so it sounds like our experiences are similar. Do you have any ideas on what is causing the O-ring failure? I presume that we are talking about the Valterra valves. I do see your point about excessive head pressure as these valves were designed for RV sewer installations with almost no head pressure.

I mostly built custom rock crawlers and off road toys but agreed, very similar

 

Yes the valterra valves, and that was on both drain and fill valves so I would assume that the pressure beating on the gate door while underway and the head pressure while full could cause the failure to either valve.

 

Here is what they should have used or something similar. It would be a cheaper and better thought out design to go with if they didnt want to create their own.

http://www.valworx.com/product/electric-actuated-ball-valve-pvcepdm-3-12-24v/electric-actuated-pvc-ball-valves-12v-24v?gclid=Cj0KEQjwuLKtBRDPicmJyvu_qZMBEiQAzlGN5jzh43hyXXsYVyjiASE9AeI7YpO7MgNU-iDoaD7KQv4aAief8P8HAQ

 

As far as the dielectric grease goes, if my dealer told me thats what finelines quick fix was I wouldnt have wasted my time to drive it the 4 miles from my house to the dealership lol

 

BTW I am at 171 hours now after 9 months of use but these failures have happened since hour 1 even on my demo not to mention on both style of valves and the PDM being replaced. we will see how the new harness and valves work out though.

Edited July 20, 2015 by nasmith342

[Babylon 23]

The valve that you listed can handle 232 PSI. I am reading through the specs on the Valterra valves (I'm not certain that the are for the same valve but the pictures look similar). Mid-flow max. closing pressure is 9 PSI for the SS 3-inch valve (15 PSI when open/closed). 9 PSI is about 20-feet of head. I don't know what the head would be for the fill-side but the drain-side should be less than 20-feet of head (even when the water is rolling back and forth I would think). I'll have to think about what the head would be on the fill-side for a boat traveling about 11 (surfing) - 25 (wake boarding) MPH.

[Lak3surf3r 714]

So I have an interesting new fix after I just picked up my boat for all the warranty issues. Murphy wrote a brand new firmware for my boat specifically that puts more voltage to the RAM gates then it did previously. This is exactly what we were thinking was causing the issue to begin with, so we will see how that works and I am happy that they are trying to figure out the root cause. I hope they read this forum about the issue and decided to stop throwing parts at it.

Edited July 30, 2015 by nasmith342

[Babylon 23]

Cool. I'll be looking forward to your report. Glad they finally tried something different.

[Cdifranco 463]

Had a guy on Instagram tell me he's ran 240 hours on his 2015 with never one failure... Wanted to call shenanigans big time

[Lak3surf3r 714]

Had a guy on Instagram tell me he's ran 240 hours on his 2015 with never one failure... Wanted to call shenanigans big time

Lol I actually know a few people that have had no issues with theirs. I don't know if our hundred twenty degree heat has anything to do with it or if it's just that voltage thing or everything all together with the bad engineering design but I hope this fixes it and they can apply it to other boats.

[Babylon 23]

I have 40+ hours with no problems thus far. Not much, I know. I know of one other local owner who claims to not have had any problems thus far - he had the new valves installed early this spring. I have spoke with the local mechanic and he hasn't seen any problems thus far but saw plenty of problems with the older valves. This is not to argue that problems don't exist. I would think that more hours = more problems but nasmith mentioned that he had problems from hour 1.

 

I'm still trying to see what the problem might be.

[IROCNParts 108]

interesting bumping the voltage would probably help! I like it.

[SurferAdam 168]

Well I currently have 140 hours on mine and the fill gates pretty much don't work at all, I just manually twist whichever side I'm surfing open then manually close it once it's full. The drain gates work 1 in 3 times without a little twist to help them open and they need to be checked each time after draining to ensure that they actually closed. Very frustrating since I bought a brand new 2015 boat which was an early build so fitted with the gen 1 valves still. Apparently I have a retrofit kit coming but that was the begining of June when the claim was put in and here we are into August and I still can't even get an answer as to what is going on, dealer never calls back and takes days on end of calling to actually even talk to anyone at which point they tell you "I'll look into it and get back to you" and never call back.

[Lak3surf3r 714]

Well I currently have 140 hours on mine and the fill gates pretty much don't work at all, I just manually twist whichever side I'm surfing open then manually close it once it's full. The drain gates work 1 in 3 times without a little twist to help them open and they need to be checked each time after draining to ensure that they actually closed. Very frustrating since I bought a brand new 2015 boat which was an early build so fitted with the gen 1 valves still. Apparently I have a retrofit kit coming but that was the begining of June when the claim was put in and here we are into August and I still can't even get an answer as to what is going on, dealer never calls back and takes days on end of calling to actually even talk to anyone at which point they tell you "I'll look into it and get back to you" and never call back.

Which confirms this entire thread that both ramFAIL style valves are worthless LOL

[DrNate 426]

I'm replacing both of my QuickFill valves. This is the first fail for the Starboard side, but if I recall correctly will be the 4th time on the Port side. (I have over 400 hours). I was gonna go Valterra valves but if they fail also then why spend the money?

[Babylon 23]

FWIW. There are people in my region (UT) who had poor luck with the earlier version of the valves. After replacing them with the newer version, their boats have been trouble-free. I have heard rumors that problems with the newer valves may be heat-related as failures seem to occur most often in regions with higher temps (like AZ). Still, my data are limited and anecdotal at best (and based upon rumors). So, pretty flakey

 

I also have an early build of a 2015 FS44 but my dealer stipulated that any new boats come with the newer valves. I took delivery during the first week of January. Thus my boat came equipped with the newer valves. I have about 45 hours thus far with no problems but I know that it is early yet. I am watching the valves very closely and visually check their operation from time to time while I am out. The valves have worked perfectly thus far.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Babylon

[Lak3surf3r 714]

FWIW. There are people in my region (UT) who had poor luck with the earlier version of the valves. After replacing them with the newer version, their boats have been trouble-free. I have heard rumors that problems with the newer valves may be heat-related as failures seem to occur most often in regions with higher temps (like AZ). Still, my data are limited and anecdotal at best (and based upon rumors). So, pretty flakey

 

I also have an early build of a 2015 FS44 but my dealer stipulated that any new boats come with the newer valves. I took delivery during the first week of January. Thus my boat came equipped with the newer valves. I have about 45 hours thus far with no problems but I know that it is early yet. I am watching the valves very closely and visually check their operation from time to time while I am out. The valves have worked perfectly thus far.

LOL babylon, you hit the nail on the head. Read back on this thread about my new and old valve failures (I live in AZ)

[Babylon 23]

I've also heard rumors of similar problems in Las Vegas. Temperature, as you (nasmith) pointed out above, probably is playing a role.

 

So, now I'm curious. For those of you reading this thread, how many of you have the latest valves (gen-2) and are seeing failures? For those seeing problems with the gen-2 valves, what region do you live in?